monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

@maporsche,

noun
a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.

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@tony5732,

tony5732 wrote:

Say the pledge of allegiance.

Why should I?

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Because it says we are a Republic, meaning 51% doesn't always cut it. Never did, never will.

1 Reply

@tony5732,

tony5732 wrote:

noun
a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.

Thanks.

Now explain how Walter was wrong when he said a representative democracy.

Explain how "elected representatives" are somehow different than "representative democracy"

1 Reply

@tony5732,

I live in a republic, too, in a democratic, federal parliamentary republic to be precise.

1 Reply

@Baldimo,

Quote:

We were never meant to be a "Democracy", we are a representitive republic

Yes, without going into the details between a representative democracy and a full blown ancient greek style every eligible voter votes democracy, I meant it in the colloquial sense..

Quote:

The Dems on the other hand only want to have mob rule when it fits them

You really don't think this is true of republicans as well?

Are you going to tell me, that there's some republicans that are like that or that yes, republicans do that sometimes too, but just not as bad as the democrats?

Or are you going to go all the way and tell me that republicans don't do what you say the democrats do at all?

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@maporsche,

Because even our elected representatives don't get elected by obtaining 51% of the vote. We have an Electoral College.

I actually don't understand the difference between a democracy and a representative democracy, but if representative democracy actually means republic, then I agree.

I do understand the difference between republic and democracy.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I live in a republic, too, in a democratic, federal parliamentary republic to be precise.

Thankfully not in my country.

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@tony5732,

Quote:

I DO think it is common sense that we want to be friends with as many people as we can,

yes, fully agreed..

Quote:

Nobody wants another cold or hot war, wasting time and money building up an even BIGGER nuclear arsenal in some kind of "mine's bigger contest".

The vast majority do not want this, but powerful people in a position to do just this, do have a desire to show how 'big' they are..And in irony news, Trump has engaged in this in the literal sense for which this metaphor is being used..

Quote:

There are other countries like China and North Korea that are almost opposite of what we are in our philosophy, and they are much more dangerous in my opinion

Until the next demagogue who is has spurious interests with those countries decides to let us citizens know it is ok now not to fear them. Oceana is no longer our enemy..

Quote:

We will never be buddy buddy with these countries that don't believe what we do, but we have a chance to do that with Russia.

Yes, we do, we've actually always had that chance. The question isn't about chances, its about the reasons we are doing it and the possible outcomes that those reasons might generate..

Your argument has the correct heart, but it assumes that the powerful players involved in this issue have that same correct heart. I'm not convinced they do..and btw, my position this has nothing to do with Obama's response, I'm here just talking about Trump..

1 Reply

@tony5732,

So what's a 'Banana Republic'? Mr. Green

1 Reply

@tony5732,

tony5732 wrote:

Because even our elected representatives don't get elected by obtaining 51% of the vote. We have an Electoral College.

I actually don't understand the difference between a democracy and a representative democracy, but if representative democracy actually means republic, then I agree.

I do understand the difference between republic and democracy.

Our senators and representatives don't get elected by a 50%+1 majority?

Representative democracy means republic. Just about every country that people generally term as a democracy is actually a republic.

When Ronald Reagan spoke about democracy at length in his political career, he actually meant representative democracy.

“Democracy is not a fragile flower,” Reagan said. “Still it needs cultivating. If the rest of this century is to witness the gradual growth of freedom and democratic ideals, we must take actions to assist the campaign for democracy.”

The only reason people bring this up now is because Trump lost the popular vote by almost 3,000,000 voters.

Once a democratic president loses the popular vote, the parties will flip their positions, as has hypocritically been done by politicians for 2+ millennia in the USA.

1 Reply

@catbeasy,

"The vast majority do not want this, but powerful people in a position to do just this, do have a desire to show how 'big' they are..And in irony news, Trump has engaged in this in the literal sense for which this metaphor is being used.."

LOL its funny because it's true.

"Until the next demagogue who is has spurious interests with those countries decides to let us citizens know it is ok now not to fear them. Oceana is no longer our enemy.."

I don't agree with this. We are talking about fundamental differences in mindset. America doesn't agree to muslim law. We will always be infidels. America believes in free speech. North Korea says hell no. I think the problem is we play by different sets of rules and therefore have extremely different cultures, and different ways of doing things. That's why we don't really get along.

"
Yes, we do, we've actually always had that chance. The question isn't about chances, its about the reasons we are doing it and the possible outcomes that those reasons might generate.."

To me the reason always seems to be self interest and self preservation. That's okay with me. If we can do ANY sort of agreeing that is mutually beneficial to the US and Russia then that's all there is to it, we have some common interests, and we are stronger together.

1 Reply

@catbeasy,

Lol! A republic where bananas choose their representatives of course

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@maporsche,

"Representative democracy means republic. Just about every country that people generally term as a democracy is actually a republic".

So why is calling us a republic a false dichotomy?

I think that's where we started.

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@tony5732,

tony5732 wrote:

"Representative democracy means republic. Just about every country that people generally term as a democracy is actually a republic".

So why is calling us a republic a false dichotomy?

I think that's where we started.

The quote in question is this:

Quote:

We were never meant to be a "Democracy", we are a representative republic.

That's the false dichotomy.

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@maporsche,

Do we vote on federal laws? No, we don't, we elect representatives who go to DC and vote for us, well that is the way is suppose to work. Our only direct democracy is when we vote on local matters. Some states are more democratic than others. My state for instance, can't raise taxes unless the people vote on it. Do you have that same power in your state? There is a reason people are leaving IL in droves, your politicians no longer represent the people, they only represent themselves and their DNC lackies. Tell me again how that Dem Madigan is treating you?

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@maporsche,

OK, then how does the whole Electoral College thing not make the difference between a republic and a democracy? I think where I am getting confused is where we really want to use the term "democracy" we are really electing representatives for ourselves and not really voting on any decisions at all by a majority vote, other than who is representing us, and only in certain cases, but not others.

1 Reply

@tony5732,

Quote:

I don't agree with this. We are talking about fundamental differences in mindset. America doesn't agree to muslim law. We will always be infidels. America believes in free speech. North Korea says hell no

Yes, its hard to see us being friendly with those nations in the future, but again, this isn't about 'nations', this is about a small number of powerful people who agree to set aside their differences for their own personal interests, which may not be in the best interests of the citizens over which they preside.
And note, that I say this isn't about nations, because, despite our crazy differences, its propaganda to the rescue.

Do you think anyone in the 50's would ever have thought it possible to cozy up to a communist country? That idea would have been insane. In fact its only recently become sane and that was at the end of the 80's with Glasnost, but that quickly, mostly quietly faded and the new Russia, while not viewed with as much contempt as the USSR, was still given a side glance wary eyed countenance..

The point here is never doubt the power of propaganda. Officials understand what they need to do, have had a huge history of doing it and do it very well..North Korea sounds impossible, but with the right control of information..

Quote:

To me the reason always seems to be self interest and self preservation. That's okay with me

Self interest and self preservation for who? You tacit assumption here is that its for 'the nation' and all the citizens (or a majority) in it. If you are correct, who would argue that? Not me. I just don't have as sanguine a crystal ball as you that thinks that the benefits are for the majority, in fact the opposite..

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@tony5732,

Code:Lol! A republic where bananas choose their representatives of course

Well, we have to admit that a banana republic has a certain 'appeal'? No? Mr. Green

1 Reply

@catbeasy,

You are cracking me up cat!

0 Replies

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