monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

@tony5732,

tony5732 wrote:

OK, then how does the whole Electoral College thing not make the difference between a republic and a democracy? I think where I am getting confused is where we really want to use the term "democracy" we are really electing representatives for ourselves and not really voting on any decisions at all by a majority vote, other than who is representing us, and only in certain cases, but not others.

A lot of republics don't have an electoral college. The EC has absolutely zero to do with any difference between a republic or a democracy.

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@catbeasy,

"Self interest and self preservation for who? You tacit assumption here is that its for 'the nation' and all the citizens (or a majority) in it. If you are correct, who would argue that? Not me. I just don't have as sanguine a crystal ball as you that thinks that the benefits are for the majority, in fact the opposite.."

OK I don't agree with you in this instance, but I at least understand what you're saying. Yes, I was thinking nation to nation, your thinking more on people in general. I definitely don't have a crystal ball either, I am just not as cynical because I don't DISLIKE trump yet and trust Trump just a bit more than his alternative, and a lot of his ideas (or stated ideas) make sense. His motivations behind wanting the presidency also make sense. His wanting to be cozy with Putin also makes sense but I haven't figured out how it might be a bad thing yet.

I do admit he's got a lot of proving to do.

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@maporsche,

We are a republic, that's why we have the EC, we don't vote on Federal laws or on how much our taxes are going to go up or down. What's so hard to understand about this? Our Federal govt is a republic, our state and local govt are more democratic but then again, as I said when was the last time you voted on a tax issue in your state?

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@catbeasy,

"Yes, its hard to see us being friendly with those nations in the future, but again, this isn't about 'nations', this is about a small number of powerful people who agree to set aside their differences for their own personal interests, which may not be in the best interests of the citizens over which they preside.
And note, that I say this isn't about nations, because, despite our crazy differences, its propaganda to the rescue.

Do you think anyone in the 50's would ever have thought it possible to cozy up to a communist country? That idea would have been insane. In fact its only recently become sane and that was at the end of the 80's with Glasnost, but that quickly, mostly quietly faded and the new Russia, while not viewed with as much contempt as the USSR, was still given a side glance wary eyed countenance..

The point here is never doubt the power of propaganda. Officials understand what they need to do, have had a huge history of doing it and do it very well..North Korea sounds impossible, but with the right control of information.."

OK. But we are really far from this. So are these other countries. They have lots of reasons not to like US, and we have lots of reasons to be wary. My argument is more "China and North Korea and ISIS are not going to be nice right now, Russia is saying they want to work with us".

1 Reply

@maporsche,

OK, screw the EC. What about the supreme Court? What about elected officials making decisions like Marijuana legalization and abortion rather than the people voting on this stuff? Like we would in a democracy.

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@tony5732,

tony5732 wrote:

OK, screw the EC. What about the supreme Court? What about elected officials making decisions like Marijuana legalization and abortion rather than the people voting on this stuff? Like we would in a democracy.

Elected officials (or representatives) voting on issues is exactly what makes the USA an representative democracy. People are voted to represent us in a democratic election (that's the democratic part). Those people represent us in government (that's the republic part).

The USA is a republic. It's also a representative democracy. Representative democracy is a more specific description than simply 'republic'.

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@maporsche,

Do you think the majority should rule? If the people want it and they vote for it, they should get it...

1 Reply

@Baldimo,

Baldimo wrote:

We are a republic, that's why we have the EC

I'm going to try to put your argument into standard form. Let me know if I'm missing something.

If you'd like a quick tutorial on standard form, here you go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-UIuucUl8w

Premise 1) The USA is a republic
P2) All republics have ECs
therefore
Conclusion) the USA has an EC

Your argument is wrong because premise 2 is incorrect. An electoral college is NOT what defines a republic.

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@Baldimo,

Baldimo wrote:

Do you think the majority should rule? If the people want it and they vote for it, they should get it...

In some cases, yes. In other cases, no.

Have something more specific in mind?

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@tony5732,

Marijuana legalization has been directly decided by the voters in the states that have legalized it. The issues are placed on the states' ballots.

2 Replies

@Baldimo,

Baldimo wrote:

as I said when was the last time you voted on a tax issue in your state?

November 8th, 2016 (although I guess technically I voted early, so November 4th, 2016)

https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20161108/jefferson-park/illinois-transportation-taxes-fees-lockbox-amendment-passes-constitution

1 Reply

@maporsche,

My problem with the term "democracy" is that I see this as a propaganda tool. Our leaders know that we like the way the word democracy sounds because we tie it in with sayings like "for the people, by the people".

That's not true though. Our rules are not made by or interpreted by the people. Our rules are made and interpreted by people who are sometimes elected by a majority of the people and sometimes, like with Trump and the supreme Court, not elected by the people.

It's more of a "for the people by the powers that be, and the people have some influence".

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

Didn't know that. Thanks for informing. Do all states get this opportunity?

1 Reply

@tony5732,

tony5732 wrote:

My problem with the term "democracy" is that I see this as a propaganda tool. Our leaders know that we like the way the word democracy sounds because we tie it in with sayings like "for the people, by the people".

That's not true though. Our rules are not made by or interpreted by the people. Our rules are made and interpreted by people who are sometimes elected by a majority of the people and sometimes, like with Trump and the supreme Court, not elected by the people.

It's more of a "for the people by the powers that be, and the people have some influence".

You're going to have to take your problems with that quote to Abraham Lincoln if you believe in Heaven and that both of you will be there.

Some of our rules are made by the people directly. Look at your example of marijuana legalization.

Other rules are made by the people indirectly (through their elected representatives).

Regardless, America is considered to be a democratic nation, in the same vein as every other current democratic country in the world.

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@tony5732,

tony5732 wrote:

Didn't know that. Thanks for informing. Do all states get this opportunity?

They all have the option of putting it up for a vote in their states. Not all o them have done that but more and more are every election.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

"Regardless, America is considered to be a democratic nation, in the same vein as every other current democratic country in the world."

By who?

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@maporsche,

"They all have the option of putting it up for a vote in their states. Not all o them have done that but more and more are every election."

Who gets this option? Who decides whether the law gets to be decided by the people or not?

1 Reply

@tony5732,

tony5732 wrote:

"Regardless, America is considered to be a democratic nation, in the same vein as every other current democratic country in the world."

By who?

Every single president.
The vast, vast majority of the population of the United States.
The United Nations.
The European Union.

I mean, just about everyone.

1 Reply

@tony5732,

tony5732 wrote:

"They all have the option of putting it up for a vote in their states. Not all o them have done that but more and more are every election."

Who gets this option? Who decides whether the law gets to be decided by the people or not?

In most states someone would start a petition and if that petition gets enough signatures from voters, it will appear on a ballot. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the gist of it.

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@maporsche,

True. I've visited over 80 countries of the world, and know the difference between the US and other countries of the world. Although many claim Israel is a democracy, it isn't. There's a reason why Palestinian cars have green license plates and armed guards on the roads. I know of no other country where any group is restricted from using the roads. Even China and Russia has freedom on their roads.

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