192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
georgeob1
 
  -3  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 04:07 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Quote:
I think by this time anyone denying Trump campaign aides "collusion" just has to deny in the teeth of proof to the contrary. Why is it so important to deny it?
It's a good question, rev. There's no rational reason for Trump to repeat so frequently the assertion that "there was no collusion" (16 instances in the last interview alone plus 50, 60 100? earlier instances) or to work so hard at attempting to crush investigations. That is, there's no rational reason other than that he's very worried about what will be turned up re collusion or re some serious financial or other matters.

I doubt that Trump has made any more references to the supposed "collusion" than have his Democrat and media accusers. The most remarkable thing so far about this matter are (1) the absence of any as yet disclosed evidence of anything illegal on Trump's part; and (2) The growing evidence suggesting a fairly systematic effort to whitewash Hillary in the Obama Justice Dept. and FBI, accompanied by efforts to develop materials to inhibit the success of then candidate Trump among the bureaucrats in both organizations - one that may well have carried over to the current Mueller investigation.

blatham wrote:

And the other figures here (Fox, Limbaugh, GOP reps in Congress, etc) it's not difficult to grasp why they are supporting Trump's behavior. For GOP voters that make up Trump's base, it's tribal affiliation. I suspect that the right wing folks posting here - certainly the majority of them - are not concerned with anything Trump might have been guilty of.

You are merely indulging in your habitual speculation based on your apparent inclination to assume you somehow know the motivations of other people. I'll admit this often fits the current narrative of the political propagandists you follow, but they too can't possibly know the reality here either.

Right now the Democrats are clinging to their old Congressional leadership, which appears to have no strategy or platform other than "resistance". There is indeed a more active far left wing element rising in the DNC and perhaps among Democrats more widely. However their historical track record for electability is nothing to brag about, and the current DNC leadership is falling far behind its previous success in fund raising.

Trump defied many of the polls in the 2016 election, and that is likely a continuing phenomenon ( though of uncertain magnitude). My impression is that the passage of the recent Tax Reform legislation also saw a significant breakdown of the divides previously limiting the Republicans, particularly in the House of representatives. Success can be a powerful unifying influence. Setbacks among the majority Party in Congress in mid term elections are the norm, but I believe current indicators strongly suggest that Republicans will retain majorities in both Houses.
revelette1
 
  2  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 04:08 pm
The Whoppers of 2017 (FactCheck.org)

0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 04:15 pm
@blatham,
Quote:
there's no rational reason other than that he's very worried about what will be turned up re collusion or re some serious financial or other matters.


No rational reason, eh?

Nice try, cheese-eater.

As Trump had pointed out from the beginning, this whole "alleged collusion" matter is doing a great deal of damage to our country, both domestically and abroad. That provides a very "rational reason" for refuting it.

That said, me, I aint much of one for "rational reasons." I prefer irrational "reasons," ya know? I also prefer true facts over facts.

thack45
 
  3  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 04:30 pm
Another angle on the great big ol NYT interview, drawing parallels to the later years of the Reagan presidency
Trump’s New York Times Interview Is a Portrait of a Man in Cognitive Decline
blatham
 
  4  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 04:40 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I doubt that Trump has made any more references to the supposed "collusion" than have his Democrat and media accusers.
Good grief. That you believe such a thing is merely more evidence that you aren't paying attention and, worse, that you feel no need to because you already know everything about it that's important.
Quote:
The most remarkable thing so far about this matter are (1) the absence of any as yet disclosed evidence of anything illegal on Trump's part;
There is actually nothing remarkable about this at all. Unless you think it would be kind of cool for a grand jury to leak what it is up to and what information has been discovered.
Quote:
The growing evidence suggesting a fairly systematic effort to whitewash Hillary in the Obama Justice Dept. and FBI, accompanied by efforts to develop materials to inhibit the success of then candidate Trump among the bureaucrats in both organizations - one that may well have carried over to the current Mueller investigation.
No, it doesn't. You are being told it does and you buy the con.
Quote:
You are merely indulging in your habitual speculation based on your apparent inclination to assume you somehow know the motivations of other people.
Motivations are not picked up on a brain scan. Nor discerned by palm reading. They can be pretty clearly discerned, however, by a person's own statements ("grab them by the pussy", "give them the old Trump bullshit") and by an individual's (or a group's) behavior. This is such a simple point.
blatham
 
  2  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 04:56 pm
@thack45,
There's a really valuable link inside this article to a column Margaret Sullivan wrote after the Times fucked up so badly (they probably got played) on initial reporting re the email story. That was summer 2015, of course, when Sullivan was still at the Times as Public Editor. Side note, Schmidt was involved in that reporting as well as the recent interview.
Quote:
"It appears that your reporters relied on leaks from the Gowdy committee to suggest that Clinton was involved in some kind of criminal malfeasance around the emails".

NYT
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -3  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 04:56 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
As Trump had pointed out from the beginning, this whole "alleged collusion" matter is doing a great deal of damage to our country, both domestically and abroad. That provides a very "rational reason" for refuting it.


Even the far-left wing Nation (aka the "house organ of the left") knows this, fool:

The Nation wrote:
Media Contempt for Facts Grows Along With the Dangers of War With Russia--“Russiagate” has become a grave threat to US national security—but its discredited foundational allegations persist.

By Stephen F. Cohen
The most influential US media outlets continue to report what is now an established falsehood. Considering the outlets, the most indicative example may be Maggie Haberman, a lead New York Times reporter on “Russiagate” and regular CNN panelist, who wrote, on June 26, that President Trump “still refuses to acknowledge a basic fact agreed upon by 17 American intelligence agencies…Russia orchestrated the attacks and did it to help get him elected.”

It is Haberman and the Times that refuse “to acknowledge a basic fact.” And they are far from alone. On June 26, Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen repeated the same falsehood, which issues almost daily from CNN and MSNBC hosts and carefully selected guests.

[Editorial comment: Hmmm, I would guess that if "the most influential US media outlets" mention collusion "almost daily," then, collectively that would exceed, BY FAR, Trump's references to it. And that doesn't even count all the references by the (tens of millions of) democrats George included, eh?]

....One day, all of this reckless media malpractice may be critically exposed by media historians or journalism schools, though they scarcely do so today. But in real time, it is exceedingly dangerous—distracting, distorting, or paralyzing a sitting American president as the new Cold War with Russia slouches toward hot war.

Stephen F. Cohen is a professor emeritus of Russian studies and politics at New York University and Princeton University and a contributing editor of The Nation.


https://www.thenation.com/article/media-contempt-for-facts-grows-along-with-the-dangers-of-war-with-russia/
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -4  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 05:19 pm
Quote:
Colorado deputy killed, 4 others shot in 'ambush-style' attack outside Denver

A New Year's Eve domestic disturbance call sparked an “ambush-style” attack that left one deputy dead, four others injured and two civilians wounded at an apartment complex just south of Denver.

The suspect fired off around 100 rounds with a rifle at the Copper Canyon apartment community in Highlands Ranch, Douglas County Sheriff Tony Spurlock said. “They all went down, almost within seconds of each other,” Spurlock said.


What do we want?

DEAD COPS!

When do we want it?

NOW!

Anything else ya want, brother?

Yeah, the continued encouragement and support of the democratic party, thanks. We want to be onstage at the next national convention again, ya know?
georgeob1
 
  0  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 05:25 pm
@blatham,
Your post is a convincing argument that you are projecting your own habitual errors on those who disagree with you.

The MSM is full of stories about the supposed "collusion" that are endlessly repeated. Trump protests a bit too much for my taste, but his voice is but one, no matter how much he repeats himself. Moreover he does have a fairly effective a record of redirecting the discussion which is a setback for his detractors.

We shall soon (I hope) see what the Mueller investigation yields. So far not much has developed.

It is you, not me, who so habitually and avidly consumes the contemporary political commentary. Events will ultimately reveal just who has been conned. As I recall your frequently repeated predictions about the 2016 election were all wrong.

You evade difficult questions and grossly overestimate your ability to read the minds of other people, You certainly don't know either my thoughts or reading habits. You also exhibit a singular lack of doubt or skepticism about your many detailed theories concerning what others intend and what motivates them. Neither does much to enhance your credibility.
blatham
 
  2  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 05:44 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
The MSM is full of stories about the supposed "collusion" that are endlessly repeated.
Seriously, george. How the **** would you know that? You don't read the Times or the Post, to name just two. By admission, you attend to The Economist and the WSJ. So, again, how would you know? Or a better self-reflective exercise would be to isolate who/what told you this is true?

In your earlier post, in response to my noting that Trump said "There was no collusion" 16 times in one interview, you suggested equivalence with unnamed Dems. Here, because there is no such case or anything even close, "unnamed" can be appropriately replaced by the term "imagined". You can make my claim here look foolish if you find a comparable example. You won't but it would be kind of fun having you waste a couple of hours looking (but we both know that's not going to happen).

As to collusion, that is merely one element in Meuller's investigation. Possible financial improprieties/crimes (Manafort/Gates most obviously) and possible obstruction of justice. Contrary to your claim that there was no collusion, that is already known to be false given the exchanges between Russian operators wishing to aid Trump through passing on "dirt" on Hillary and the eager acceptance by Don Jr and Kushner to meet up and find what the Russians had. Whether there's more such to be found, is something we'll likely find out in time. Collusion may or may not be criminal depending on other related factors but that's irrelevant.
blatham
 
  3  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 06:02 pm
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSWa2R4WsAARM8n.jpg:large
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 06:19 pm
Quote:
Ezra Klein
‏Verified account
@ezraklein 31 Dec 2017
More Ezra Klein Retweeted Sam Stein
Trump keeps proving that if you simply refuse to be ashamed of your corruption and lying, there’s not much the media can do to you, and the conversation eventually moves on. It’s a real weakness in the system, at least while the opposition party is powerless.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 06:33 pm
@blatham,
I have made the perhaps foolish assumption that your references were to criminal collusion - anything less would not merit either an investigation or follow up action. I'll concede that much of the sound and fury, both from Dems and the MSM,(and yourself) fails to make this important distinction.

I don't think that mentioning what Trump clearly believes (or merely insists) is a fundamental truth 16 times in an interview with a normally very hostile media source is evidence of insanity or derangement. Trump is unorthodox in many ways and was seriously underestimated by his opponents, both Republican and Democrat in the 2016 elections. That is a very effective strategy, one that figures prominently in history going back a very long time. You should read more history.

Trump violates conventional norms in many ways, and that has likely been an asset to him throughout his career. One could wish for more decorous behavior from a political figure, but that is a relatively minor defect on the political scale. (And as Chris Matthews says , "politics is hardball".) However, it is a defect that often excites real rage among his opponents -- sometimes that is a very effective tactic. (The Clintons are often credited with a great deal of political finesse and knowing "how things are done", but, despite that, their careers and actions to promote them are widely faulted, based on much more serious matters.) Now we have the sad spectacle of watching Hillary, who simply won't get off the stage and shut up when her act is clearly over. Do you find that a bit odd??? Possibly deranged ?? I do.

My reading habits, particularly those involving contemporary events, change a good deal over time. You may imagine you know my sources and the range of my personal contacts, but you really don't. I lead a very active life, stay current, and and interact with a very broad range of people on a variety of matters.

It's time to suit up for the evening festivities. I've got two daughters and a son, and a bunch of grandkids here - it's been a busy week.

I extend my best wishes for a Happy New Year to all here.
Below viewing threshold (view)
BillW
 
  2  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 07:30 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Quote:
Criminally Insane!
I think the very last direction Trump might ever give his lawyers is to argue in court that he ought to get off on any charge because he is or was insane.

But in a less formal sense, yes, I think it more than likely that Trump is both.


I was making the statement from fact, not as a defense. BTW, the simple fact he understands right from wrong makes it an unusable defense for his actions.
blatham
 
  3  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 07:31 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I have made the perhaps foolish assumption that your references were to criminal collusion - anything less would not merit either an investigation or follow up action.
And how would anyone know if criminality is a feature of the collusion without an investigation?
Quote:
Collusion is not a federal crime (except in the unique case of antitrust law), so we should all just stop using “collusion” as a short-hand for criminality. But that doesn’t mean that the alleged cooperation between the Trump campaign and Russia is of no criminal interest. To the contrary, if true, it may have violated any number of criminal prohibitions.

For example, if Donald Trump Jr. sought “dirt” on Hillary Clinton from the Russians, he might be charged with conspiring to violate the election laws of the United States, which prohibit foreign nationals from contributing any “thing of value” to an electoral campaign. The opposition dirt is at least plausibly a thing of value. And to the extent that the Trump campaign aided, abetted or advised the Russians (or any other hackers) about what would be most useful to steal from the Democrats or how best to enhance the impact of their release, they may well have violated the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
Paul Rosenzweig, former deputy assistant sec for polity at DHS.
Quote:
The word “collusion” has been a terrible one to use in the Trump-Russia saga, since it doesn’t accurately describe either the criminal or counterintelligence aspects of what we know. On the criminal side, the word that would best describe an agreement between the Trump campaign and Russia to commit any number of crimes (say, election fraud) would be “conspiracy”—something that the recent release of Donald Trump Jr.’s email chain might support.

On the counterintelligence side, collusion is best described by the word “recruitment.” The aim of a foreign intelligence service is to find and convince individuals to help them achieve intelligence objectives.
Asha Rangappa, associate dean Yale Law School, former special agent at Counterintelligence Div of FBI

That's the first two opinions of legal and intel scholars gathered together by Politico

Let us note here that there is no evidence of criminality arising from Clinton's actions re email or Benghazi. Likewise, there was no evidence of criminality re Whitewater. Therefore, according to you thesis above, no one had any proper business running investigations in either of these cases.

Let me add another very important point. If Trump's team did not engage in collusion but in a manner that does not demand a criminal charge, it would still be a significant scandal if that team knowingly worked with Russian operatives to turn the election in Trump's favor. If that was the case, then US citizens really ought to know (and would surely want to know) it was the case. So even if there is no explicit criminality on this point, an investigation is surely in the nation's best interest.
Quote:

I don't think that mentioning what Trump clearly believes (or merely insists) is a fundamental truth 16 times in an interview with a normally very hostile media source is evidence of insanity or derangement. Trump is unorthodox in many ways and was seriously underestimated by his opponents, both Republican and Democrat in the 2016 elections. That is a very effective strategy, one that figures prominently in history going back a very long time. You should read more history.
I did not say that this singular case of restating a claim 16 times in that interview was evidence of derangement. One has to look at a much broader range of Trump behaviors to get to that conclusion as real possibility. But when one does, the case is reasonably made. As to "effective strategy", sure, you could say that. But so is slaughtering all your potential political enemies. So was much of what Goebbels did. So is lying, often. Stealing can be and effective strategy. Serial rape can spread your genes far and wide as DNA testing has confirmed re Genghis and a few other seriously ugly humans. You need a new moral compass, george.

Re your reading habits - you previously wrote here that your news diet is The Economist and the WSJ. Your words.

Other than that, happy new year to you too.
blatham
 
  2  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 08:10 pm
@BillW,
Quote:
the simple fact he understands right from wrong
I don't know that he does. Though he might well understand risk factors.
BillW
 
  2  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 08:17 pm
@blatham,
The test of knowing right from wrong is very simple in US law. You don't need to know it when you did the act, only when you are on trial. Look at all the criminally insane currently in prisons. If someone is to be executed, they fill them full of drugs so they "know" what is going on - then "off 'em". Make sure they are "aware"; ie, full of drugs, when Judge pronounces sentence.
blatham
 
  3  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 08:30 pm
@BillW,
Criminal insanity is a legal defense. My original point was that Trump, perhaps more than anyone else in the whole bloody world, would never allow a lawyer to go forward with that defense. His narcissism and grandiosity and need to appear dominant would not permit such a public degradation.
BillW
 
  2  
Sun 31 Dec, 2017 09:13 pm
@blatham,
This too is truth, which of course is not a tRump trait either.....
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 1.21 seconds on 11/15/2024 at 06:39:35