192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
hightor
 
  2  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 10:27 am
@layman,
This concerns the similar case that arose in Colorado.
Quote:

(...)

Businesses have raised First Amendment objections to antidiscrimination laws in the past, but the Supreme Court has always rejected them. In 1968, the Court dismissed as “patently frivolous” a South Carolina restaurant chain’s argument that serving black customers “interfere[d] with the ‘free exercise of [its] religion.’”1 Five years later, when private racially segregated schools opposed a prohibition on racial discrimination in admissions, asserting that it violated their freedom of association, the Court acknowledged that “private discrimination may be characterized as a form of exercising freedom of association protected by the First Amendment,” but ruled that such discrimination “has never been accorded affirmative constitutional protections.”2 And in 1984, when a corporate law firm objected that a requirement to consider a woman for partner would interfere with its First Amendment rights to speak and associate, the Court once again rejected the contention, stating that there is “no constitutional right to discriminate.”3 As Justice Sandra Day O’Connor explained in yet another case rejecting a First Amendment exemption from an antidiscrimination law:


"The Constitution does not guarantee a right to choose employees, customers, suppliers, or those with whom one engages in simple commercial transactions, without restraint from the State…. A shopkeeper has no constitutional right to deal only with persons of one sex.4"


If the courts were to recognize a First Amendment exemption to such general regulations of commercial conduct, it would render antidiscrimination laws, and many other business regulations, unenforceable in many settings. Consider the First Amendment right of association. Any prohibition on discrimination can be characterized as a requirement to associate with those with whom one would rather not associate. The Court must choose between the two, and its choice has been clear since Brown v. Board of Education declared segregation unconstitutional.

Religious exemptions are also generally incompatible with antidiscrimination laws. Beyond asking whether a religious belief is sincere, the courts have no way to measure whether religious beliefs are “legitimate.” As a result, a constitutional religious exemption would free any business owner who framed his objection in religious terms from an obligation to treat his customers equally. As Justice Antonin Scalia wrote for the Court in rejecting a free exercise claim in 1990, laws of general applicability “could not function” if they were subject to such religious challenges. Quoting an 1878 decision, Scalia warned that such an exemption would “permit every citizen to become a law unto himself.

(...)

Only laws that target religion, or that are intended to deny equal treatment to a protected class, trigger heightened scrutiny under the First Amendment’s religion clause and the Equal Protection clause. In a pluralist society, it is inevitable that many generally applicable laws will have incidental effects on different community members. But unless every man is to be a “law unto himself,” there cannot be an exemption for everyone who complains about a law’s indirect effect on his constitutional rights.

Let Them Buy Cake
Maybe the Kleins should have opened a church instead of a bakery shop.
Below viewing threshold (view)
snood
 
  2  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 10:45 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

I don't have a lot of criticism of Schmidt here. Normally, reporting that doesn't dig in but rather just provides itself as a conduit for PR, deserves criticism for that.sometimes it's very worthwhile. If not for interviews with Trump, we'd know much less about him.
[/quote ]
What did this interview reveal about Trump that we didn't already know? That he's a narcissist on a galactic scale? That he lies and meanders from topic to topic? That he denies any Russian collusion and sees the justice department as his own personal tool? NO, I say that any journalist given a crack at the Dotard should see it as an opportunity to hold the man accountable. THAT is what has been missing, from the time he descended the escalator and began this beknighted era. Journos have been guided by anxiety about access, ratings and career rather than getting at the truth. Are you saying that it doesn't bother you at all that no one can ask the man ONE ******* uncomfortable question?
blatham
 
  2  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 10:46 am
@hightor,
Quote:
Maybe the Kleins should have opened a church instead of a bakery shop.
This would have the advantage of giving them far more opportunities to use the term "abomination".
hightor
 
  3  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 11:01 am
@layman,
Isn't the Boy Scouts of America a private organization?

The 5-4 Dale decision predates U.S. vs Windsor by thirteen years and in the latter case, cheese-eating Justice Kennedy agreed that the Constitution prohibited Congress from discriminating against same-sex couples by denying them the right to marry.
thack45
 
  2  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 11:05 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:


Quote:
One year out, this may be Mr. Trump’s greatest trick: His tornado of news-making has scrambled Americans’ grasp of time and memory, producing a sort of sensory overload that can make even seismic events — of his creation or otherwise — disappear from the collective consciousness and public view.

He is the magician who swallows a sword no one thought was part of the act, stuffs a dozen rabbits into a hat before the audience can count them — and then merrily tweets about “Fox & Friends” while the crowd strains to remember what show it had paid to attend in the first place.
NYT

The article of course addresses another side of this: in so many words, every news outlet has to cover all of it. And it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't, because in competing for viewers, everyone else is covering it, so you'd better drop what you're doing and jump in! How would it look if you're still hung up on Trump's idiotic boast of saving Americans from the "war on Christmas" when he just denied climate change – with the unsurprising, typical idiot's argument – on twitter?!

So it's off to the races, and 50 different organizations are working on their version of the pick-apart of the interview. Then come the fact-checks, and op-eds, and the left-leaning outlets have their say. Hell, the NYT felt compelled to run an article from the author of the article about writing the article. I do wonder how many people were forced to shelve stories on the president once again publicly displaying his primitive grasp of things in his "global warming" tweet, for the NYT interview.
layman
 
  -4  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 11:05 am
@layman,
Needless to say, David "cheese-eater" Cole also avoids any disclosure of the even more recent Hobby-Lobby case (2012), eh?

Quote:
Question: Does the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 allow a for-profit company to deny its employees health coverage of contraception to which the employees would otherwise be entitled based on the religious objections of the company's owners?

Conclusion: Yes.


https://www.oyez.org/cases/2013/13-354

This case goes beyond individual rights, and applies to corporate rights, eh?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 11:12 am
@hightor,
Quote:
...cheese-eating Justice Kennedy agreed that the Constitution prohibited Congress from discriminating against same-sex couples by denying them the right to marry.


To the great chagrin of all cheese-eaters everywhere, the cheese-eating Kennedy no longer has the pivotal position of being able "to swing" constitutional decisions.

For that matter, according to the article I have already cited from the cheese-eating CNN, even Kennedy appears to be siding with the cake-baker in this case. You may recall that they reported him as being "infuriated" by the anti-religious freedom arguments the cheese-eaters were trying to make, eh?

What will they do now that they don't have a majority of cheese-eating judical activists to create law for them which the people refuse to enact and to twist the constitution to achieve political/social ends?

Tough ****, cheese-eaters.

0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 11:14 am
@snood,
It's a fair argument, snood. The perceived need to have continuing access to WH personnel has been one of the most serious procedural errors of the political press, particularly with this President and the low-value daily press conferences.

But I think, given the nature of Trump's mind, that he believes himself to be capable of manipulating the media more than anyone in the history of homo sapiens ever, this delusion again trips him up in an interview and he reveals how unfit he is for the job.

His approval ratings are in the toilet and this is getting worse for him, which means that lots of GOP voters and independent voters (not to mention Dem voters) are increasingly aware of the guy's unfitness. And that has come mainly from how Trump presents himself, rather than as a consequence of the press not grilling him adequately.

Trump is a unique case. In the first place, he seldom gives them (mainstream press rather than Fox etc) an opportunity to as him tough questions and then, when he does, he just lies and bamboozles and fakes and yells. So it's not as if a cutting question will gain an answer that's worthwhile other than as more evidence of his unfitness.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 11:18 am
@thack45,
The guy definitely understands information control.
thack45
 
  2  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 11:39 am
@blatham,
Maybe he does, and maybe he doesn't. The bigger problem looking forward, is that now many others understand it too.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -3  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 12:17 pm
@layman,
Of course, they are free to challenge the law, and they have. They may even triumph, in which case I won't be filled with outrage.

I just don't see this as a clear violation of their religious rights, nor a case of such obvious social imbalance (e.g. Jim Crow days) that a whole lot is at stake here. In my mind, at least there is a difference between forcing someone to promote or support abortion than to bake a cake for lesbians, and if the argument is that it's not up to me to make such judgments about someone's religion then that opens the door to what I would consider much more harmful social consequences. A line has to be drawn somewhere. The people of Oregon seem to have drawn it at refusing to bake wedding cakes for lesbians. I don't see that as draconian. If they drew a line elsewhere, I might.

I'm fatigued with people demanding their rights. There is a benefit to social harmony, and if someone is out of tune in a given state, I recommend they move.

Of course, there is a flip side to this. Should the people of a different state decide that they wish to place certain restrictions on abortion, I have no sympathy or use for those who demand the right to terminate a pregnancy in the 9th month.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  -3  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 12:19 pm
@blatham,
Do you know they ever have?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 12:26 pm
@blatham,
Anything is possible, but not all things are probable.

One thing is for sure, he's not going to be thrown out of office because of an NYT interview, and your constant floating of the idea that he is demented or a sociopath might have a lot more of an effect if it wasn't limited to your circle of followers here who already believe it, but don't worry, CNN has your back.


Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 12:32 pm
@blatham,
You seem to increasingly be taking refuge in semantics to deny what are obviously implied assertions.

D'Souza laid out a coherent argument. If you don't care to challenge it fine, but the fact that you have been reading his opinions for 25 years is meaningless in terms of what he presented. The only real meaning one can derive from your comment is that considering your opinion of the man, you seem to be a masochist who enjoys wasting his time, or simply wants to claim that familiarity with what he has written make you an authority.
blatham
 
  1  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 12:33 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Klein responded by quoting Leviticus: “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”
WP
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 12:35 pm
@blatham,
OK - Fair enough
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 12:44 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Anything is possible, but not all things are probable.
I think you're on to something there.

Quote:
One thing is for sure, he's not going to be thrown out of office because of an NYT interview
Right again.

Quote:
your constant floating of the idea that he is demented or a sociopath might have a lot more of an effect if it wasn't limited to your circle of followers here who already believe it,
Also true. I wish I had my own cable channel. But the "belief" that there's something seriously wrong with this man is definitely not restricted to left wing Canadiacks. I suppose I ought to have posted more of such commentary as it has come from American conservatives. My failing. I'll correct that going ahead.


Baldimo
 
  -4  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 12:48 pm
@layman,
The baker also said that he would provide any baking good to the gay couple, he didn't want to decorate a wedding cake for them. A birthday cake? No problem. He objects to being forced to use his artistic ability, which art is considered to be a First Amendment Right, on something he doesn't agree with.
blatham
 
  1  
Sat 30 Dec, 2017 12:59 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
the fact that you have been reading his opinions for 25 years is meaningless in terms of what he presented.
It is entirely relevant as regards why I might even bother with attending to what he says today. That would make as much sense as attending to what Donald Trump says or writes about his record and standing as president compared to previous presidents. Or attending to his statements about the stratospheric range of his incredible mind. Or about where Obama was born.

Credible voices earn their credibility and our attention. Non-credible voices earn non-attention.


ps... and you'll note than in anything I've written here to you about this guy, I haven't even mentioned that he's a convicted felon who also engaged in adultery while heading up a Christian college. I thought it quite kind of me to leave that stuff out.
 

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