192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
maporsche
 
  4  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 12:04 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You asked me earlier if I was shocked about certain things in that region. Are YOU shocked that your political allies have different opinions than you do? I mean, you sound shocked here that I would dare to have negative opinions of a region that has a very high number of things about it that are legitimately negative - and not problems imposed upon the populace there. Problems that they created themselves and exacerbate through their own current actions, all while loudly blaming Liberals.


Shocked? No, not shocked. I was initially taken aback and surprised, mostly along the lines of what Snood commented on. How I've had this same discussion with conservatives who claim that welfare needs to be ended because of welfare-moms and those no good inner city people who suck off the government teet and don't make their lives better.

I don't know that you apply your same criticisms to inner city people (mostly minorites) who have a disproportionately high number of people on welfare as well or if your scorn is relegated to an area of the country who disagrees with you and I politically.

That's all that I was surprised about.

Also, I normally agree with you so I was also surprised I guess to find you so wrong here, IMO. Not to mention so brazenly abrasive. Maybe that's normal and I just overlook it when I'm in agreement with you. Not on purpose, but subconsciously I imagine.
Below viewing threshold (view)
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 12:14 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
It isn't exactly a hotbed of tolerance and progressive attitude and opinion.


then why did they vote Democrat for so long? because they're stupid losers and should have been voting Republican all along?

http://appvoices.org/2013/10/09/appalachias-contested-history/

http://appvoices.org


I mean, the Dem party wasn't a hotbed of tolerance and progressive attitude for most of its' existence either, so on a social level they frankly fit in better with the 'old' Dem party than the new one. That being said, the decline of labor unions in the region and the rise of the environmentalism movement in the Dem party have more to do with the rejection of the Dem party there than anything else. Electing a black dude didn't ******* help either.

I could also go on somewhat about the nature of the scotch-irish populace who lives there, who really are a sub-ethnic group all their own, and who have, shall we say, very different historical moral and ethical norms than many of their fellow whites of European descent.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/why-a-key-to-the-2016-southern-vote-lies-centuries-ago-on-another-continent/2015/09/09/41308276-518a-11e5-933e-7d06c647a395_story.html?utm_term=.32911d859cd7

http://www.dailyyonder.com/how-coalfields-went-gop/2015/01/13/7668/
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 12:17 pm
@maporsche,
Quote:

I don't know that you apply your same criticisms to inner city people (mostly minorites) who have a disproportionately high number of people on welfare as well or if your scorn is relegated to an area of the country who disagrees with you and I politically.


Many of the same underlying points could be made in that direction and not all the criticisms made towards that population are invalid. However, I believe there are marked and serious differences between the two populations that make a big difference in both how I feel about their current situation and what I would prescribe as a solution for their situation. I also don't see them (to nearly the same degree) loudly rejecting those who are offering to help them change that situation. Additionally, the problems they face are very different in nature and cannot be addressed in a similar fashion. So we're really talking about two very different populations with very different problems and solutions for those problems.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  5  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 12:24 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
It isn't exactly a hotbed of tolerance and



I could also go on somewhat about the nature of the scotch-irish populace who lives there, who really are a sub-ethnic group all their own, and who have, shall we say, very different historical moral and ethical norms than many of their fellow whites of European descent.


[/quote]

Congratulations, I think you have managed to insult everyone.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 12:24 pm
@glitterbag,
Read the piece I linked before casting aspersions on me, it's a real thing.

Cycloptichorn
layman
 
  -4  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 12:25 pm
If I ever want to come across as more of a self-important ass than I already am, I'll have to remember to make sure my name appears both before and
AFTER every post I make, eh?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 12:25 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I don't follow US politics closely enough to say anything about US liberals as a group. There may be scores of them with their ear firmly on the ground. Empathetic, atuned to the little man's concerns and aspirations. I actually know a few of them, directly or through the media [e.g. Michael Moore], so no generalization from me. But I can say that Clinton is not a good listener in my book.

Neither are you. Your post starts with "that's bullshit" and then proceeds to ask for explanations -- the sign of a closed mind who's only pretending to listen.

It'd be lying to say that you're the first "a2k liberal" who strikes little me as a bit close-minded. I try to not mention it too much -- gets you downthumbs -- but it's been an issue.

Not that the Repub-affiliates posting around here are any better on average, mind you. The US is famously polarized around rival ideologies right now, and it shows.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 12:36 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I don't follow US politics closely enough to say anything about US liberals as a group. There may be scores of them with their ear firmly on the ground. Empathetic, atuned to the little man's concerns and aspirations. I actually know a few of them, directly or through the media [e.g. Michael Moore], so no generalization from me. But I can say that Clinton is not a good listener in my book.


I don't necessarily agree with that, she simply doesn't say things the way you'd like her to. This doesn't mean that she doesn't listen to or understand the problems people face. In fact, her campaign had a FAR more developed and in-depth plan for dealing with the problems we're discussing than any politician I've ever seen. It was simply rejected out of hand by the voters who lived there, who were uninterested in change. It is entirely fair to say that she communicated the plan poorly, or as Mudcat would say, focused on intellectual **** instead of emotions. Totally fair to say. But that's not the equivalent of failing to listen to people.

Quote:
Neither are you. Your post starts with "that's bullshit" and then proceeds to ask for explanations -- the sign of a closed mind who's only pretending to listen.


What you wrote WAS bullshit and you have no real actual knowledge of the region or politics you're discussing. Once again: that doesn't make me a bad listener, it makes you unhappy with the message you received after I listened to you.

I asked you to describe in detail what said 'better listening' would look like. Can you do so? Serious question. People are big on pronouncements such as this but awfully ******* vague on the details. That's not a recipe for actual successful action to be taken based on the recommendation you're giving.

Quote:
It'd be lying to say that you're the first "a2k liberal" who strikes little me as a bit close-minded. I try to not mention it too much -- gets you downthumbs -- but it's been an issue.

Not that the Repub-affiliates posting around here are any better on average, mind you. The US is famously polarized around rival ideologies right now, and it shows.


Okay? It's fine with me if you hold that opinion.

I personally stay out of discussing the politics of France and most other countries because I have no personal knowledge of it, other than the most shallow of reading things online. I don't mind you or anyone else discussing American politics but I'll never hesitate to call someone out who is writing things that are objectively false. You may feel however you like about that. But you should consider avoiding making authoritative proclamations about what US politicians should or should not be doing when you, as you have admitted yourself, do not follow US politics closely. If you can't avoid doing that, don't get upset when others point out that you're wrong.

Cycloptichorn
glitterbag
 
  6  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 12:36 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I’m not casting aspersions, you have simply been using an aggressive style as well as a few conversational tricks that make you appear somewhat hostile. No skin off my nose, it was an observation not a condemnation.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 12:39 pm
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

I’m not casting aspersions, you have simply been using an aggressive style as well as a few conversational tricks that make you appear somewhat hostile. No skin off my nose, it was an observation not a condemnation.


Fair enough and accurately said

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  2  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 01:13 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

The Democrats have tried that approach in that region for many, many years.



Quote:
if that is the case - and they voted Democrat for many, many years - why/what changed? Ms. Clinton's messaging wasn't 'great but the change started earlier


It changed with civil rights era, the more rights blacks got, the more southern democrats turned republican. Also, some still today are democrats only to vote in the primary (a union thing I think) but they vote republican in the presidential.

BillW
 
  3  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 01:17 pm
@revelette1,
revelette, It started in 1948 when Strom Thurmaond started the Dixiecrats party to defend Truman. More and more Dems in the south turned Republican until the Civil Rights Era peaked with Lyndon Johnson - as you said. Then Nixon's Southern Strategy (began by Goldwater) proved a winning combination in 1968!
0 Replies
 
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layman
 
  -3  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 03:13 pm
Well, OK, then!

Quote:
President Trump, Mattis turn military loose on ISIS, leaving terror caliphate in tatters

BAGHDAD – Hundreds of ISIS fighters had just been chased out of a northern Syrian city and were fleeing through the desert in long convoys, presenting an easy target to U.S. A-10 "warthogs."

But the orders to bomb the black-clad jihadists never came, and the terrorists melted into their caliphate -- living to fight another day. The events came in August 2016, even as then-Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump was vowing on the campaign trail to let generals in his administration crush the organization that, under President Obama, had grown from the “jayvee team” to the world’s most feared terrorist organization.

“I will…quickly and decisively bomb the hell out of ISIS,” Trump, who would name legendary Marine Corps Gen. James Mattis as secretary of defense, promised. “We will not have to listen to the politicians who are losing the war on terrorism."

Just over a year later, ISIS has been routed from Iraq and Syria with an ease and speed that's surprised even the men and women who carried out the mission. Experts say it's a prime example of a campaign promise kept. President Trump scrapped his predecessor’s rules of engagement, which critics say hamstrung the military, and let battlefield decisions be made by the generals in the theater, and not bureaucrats in Washington.

At its peak, ISIS held land in Iraq and Syria that equaled the size of West Virginia, ruled over as many as 8 million people, controlled oilfields and refineries, agriculture, smuggling routes and vast arsenals. It ran a brutal, oppressive government, even printing its own currency.

The terror organization now controls just 3 percent of Iraq and less than 5 percent of Syria. Its self-styled "caliph," Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, is believed to be injured and holed up somewhere along the lawless border of Syria and Iraq.

President Trump gave a free hand to Mattis, who in May stressed military commanders were no longer being slowed by Washington “decision cycles,” or by the White House micromanaging that existed President Obama. As a result of the new approach, the fall of ISIS in Iraq came even more swiftly than hardened U.S. military leaders expected.

“It moved more quickly than at least I had anticipated,” Croft said. “We and the Iraqi Security Forces were able to hunt down and target ISIS leadership, target their command and control.”

Brig. Gen. Robert “G-Man” Sofge, the top U.S. Marine in Iraq, told Fox News his commanders have “enjoyed not having to deal with too many distractions and there was no question about what the mission here in Iraq was.”

Marine Col. Seth Folsom, who oversaw fighting in Al Qaim near the Syrian border, agreed. He wasn’t expecting his part of the campaign against ISIS to get going until next spring and figured even then, it would then "take six months or more."

Instead, ISIS was routed in Al Qaim in just a few days.


Unlike Obama, Trump is a strong, decisive leader, who is willing to delegate to competent people and is determined to get the job done.

Trump aint playin. Mad Dog aint neither.

layman
 
  -3  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 03:33 pm
Nice try, cheese-eaters:

Quote:
FBI says Sessions didn't have to reveal Russia talks

The FBI has put to bed a controversy whipped up by liberal critics of Attorney General Jeff Sessions over his contacts with foreign officials including Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak during the 2016 presidential campaign.

An FBI email released through the Freedom of Information Act said that Sessions had no obligation to reveal any contacts with foreign officials unless he “developed personal relationships” with them.

The bottom line: His two contacts with Kislyak in 2016 did not have to be revealed to the FBI on his SF-86 security clearance application, part of his confirmation process.

Sessions has repeatedly denied that he talked about the campaign with the Russian, but critics have continued to question his decision to not list them on his SF-86, which contains a box to check for contacts.

The email confirms statements from Justice staffers that Sessions did not need to check the foreign contacts box.


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/case-closed-fbi-says-sessions-didnt-have-to-reveal-russia-talks/article/2642982

0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  -1  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 03:33 pm
@layman,
If this is true, it's great news! Smile

But you need to post a link, please.
layman
 
  -2  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 03:36 pm
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:

If this is true, it's great news! Smile

But you need to post a link, please.



Sho nuff. Here ya go, Bill:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/12/08/trump-mattis-turn-military-loose-on-isis-leaving-terror-caliphate-in-tatters.html

I just quoted a fraction of it.
roger
 
  1  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 03:38 pm
@ehBeth,
Well put, and thanks for sharing your experience.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Fri 8 Dec, 2017 03:42 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I'm not focussing on the Appalachians. I've only been through the place once. I'm saying that being able to take into consideration people's grieviances -- or at the very least, pretend to -- is an important political skill, which Clinton was not particularly strong on. And it's not about designing detailed plans, in which nobody believes anymore. It's largely a matter of personality. It's about empathy, reassuring people, reaching out. Clinton is cocksure, unapologetic and control-oriented, just like you are. It's a useful profile in a political machine but it doesn't necessarily make a good candidate.

She's better at faking it, of course, but not quite as good as she should have been. Bernie was the best candidate of the two, but the party ideologic core saw him as enemy #1 from the get go.
 

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