192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 06:41 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
You are mistaken. The obstruction of justice law applies equally to people both inside and outside of the government. It applies equally to people both inside and outside of the investigation.

If someone in the government and/or part of an ongoing investigation were to try to impede an ongoing investigation, that would be obstruction.

But the person in charge simply deciding that an investigation should not be pursued in the first place does not count as obstruction.


Blickers wrote:
A prosecutor electing not to pursue an investigation because he thinks it is not winnable is not coming to this decision for a corrupt reason. The prosecutor's boss firing the prosecutor because the case might uncover wrongdoing against the boss is firing the prosecutor for a corrupt reason, and is therefore committing obstruction of justice.

No. An official deciding that an investigation should not be pursued is not impeding an ongoing investigation.

As soon as the boss decides not to have an investigation, there is no longer an ongoing investigation. At that point there is no longer anything to impede.

Note that if the law were really as you incorrectly believe, it would be unconstitutional. The President's absolute power to command and fire executive officials comes directly from the Constitution and overrides any criminal statute.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 06:45 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Article Two, Section Two, second paragraph, reads, in it's entirety:

He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

All cabinet departments have been created by public law as passed by Congress, in pursuance of the powers granted to Congress by Article One, Section eight. The only power the president would have would be to refuse to sign a bill creating a cabinet department, which could be over-ridden by a two thirds vote of both houses.

That there are executive branch officers in implied by the constitution, but is not specifically mentioned, other than in Article II, Section Two, first and second clauses. The First Congress created the initial executive branch departments by public law.

For the record, I voted this post that I am responding too back UP. It was a politely stated argument, and did not deserve any votedown so far as I can see.

Anyway, I agree with what was said above, but I also don't see anything in it that contradicts the President's absolute power to fire anyone in the federal executive branch. Or his similar absolute power to order executive branch officers to not pursue an investigation.


Setanta wrote:
I've already mentioned Andrew Johnson, and Humphrey's Executor v. United States (1935)

And I've already pointed out that the law in the Andrew Johnson case was blatantly unconstitutional, and that the 1935 Humphrey case dealt only with the President's power to fire judicial and legislative officers, and not with officers in the executive branch.


Setanta wrote:
--additionally, the Court denied the president's right to fire executive branch officers below cabinet level in Wiener v. United States (1958),

That is incorrect. That case dealt only with the President's ability to fire judicial officers.


Setanta wrote:
and a district court confirmed Nixon's lack of power to fire the special counsel in Nader v. Bork, 1973.

District court judges spout all sorts of unconstitutional nonsense. Higher courts set them straight.


Setanta wrote:
The Court has held that Congress cannot create an executive branch department which is not under the authority of the president, but since the latter half of the 19th century, enabling acts for cabinet level positions have reserved the right of dismissal of inferior officers to Congress,

Clearly contrary to the Constitution, and therefore invalid.


Setanta wrote:
and in some cases, have reserved the right of appointment--the power for which stipulation, Federal courts and the Supreme Court have upheld.

Well yes. The Constitution gives Congress a bit of say regarding the appointment of executive officers. This power doesn't extend any further than approving of appointments though. The power to command and fire executive officers lies entirely with the President.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 06:50 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Oralloy is not just a liar, he displays a level of delusion which is just incredible.

Strange how no one can point out anything untrue in anything that I've said.


Setanta wrote:
I have cited case law, sections of the constitution, and historical events, all of which can be easily checked.

Yes. And anyone who easily checks them will see that they do not contradict my position as you claim.

Accurately citing something that does not contradict me does not do much to undermine my position.


Setanta wrote:
He mentions the first clause of one section of one article of the constitution, and does not even provide a plausible, logical argument for how that pertains to the appointment and dismissal of executive branch officers.

I didn't provide an argument regarding appointment because that is outside the scope of the firings under discussion.

I did provide a plausible and logical (and factually true) argument as to how it pertains to the firing of such officers: Absolute power over the executive branch includes the ability to fire executive officers.


Setanta wrote:
The constitution very clearly states that such officers must have the consent of the Senate.

When they are first appointed, yes. But that extends no further than approving their appointment. After that, the President has absolute power to command them and fire them.


Setanta wrote:
It's pointless to provide citations to Oralloy,

Contrary to people who don't provide cites, I'll always do my best to provide a cite upon request. And I'll always provide a cite that actually backs what I say.


Setanta wrote:
who either can't understand what is provided, or is too delusional to understand.

I am capable of understanding anything that anyone is capable of posting on a2k.


Setanta wrote:
Either way, it's a waste of time.

Well, it might be a waste of time to cite something that doesn't actually contradict me. All I'll do is point out just how and why the cite doesn't contradict me.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 06:52 pm
@BillW,
BillW wrote:
He also lacks the understanding that actions not explicitly stated in the Constitution must be decided by the Supreme Court - such as, Criminal Conspiracy RICO actions, especially when they include conspiracy to collude with a hostile foreign power for profit and benefit of an ongoing criminal organization - his crime family (literally)!

No. Things not stated in the Constitution are reserved for state governments to address or not address as they see fit. See the Tenth Amendment.


BillW wrote:
such as, Criminal Conspiracy RICO actions, especially when they include conspiracy to collude with a hostile foreign power for profit and benefit of an ongoing criminal organization - his crime family (literally)!

Any such nonsense by Witchhunter Mueller will run headlong into a storm of presidential pardons.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  4  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 06:58 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I think they just got fed up with the Echo Chamber here.


They (the cheese-eaters) are tired of it themselves. Without a few rational people like you here to display disdain for, they would bore themselves to death. They need you, but they don't deserve you, Finn.



Oh, you two are making me cry.

With laughter! It's really priceless- you two throwbacks extolling each others' numerous unappreciated virtues. Tell you what- you say you're leaving anyway, so why don't you test your theory. You could check back in 6 months to see if it all ground to a halt because of the stifling boredom of trying to discuss things without you and Finn.
I was wondering what happened to your frugase ass. Guess the mods gave you a nice long vacation to go pollute some other forum. It sure was nice. And you say you're leaving again? Do one nice thing for posterity. Well, two things. 1)Take Finn with you, and 2)don't make it a long goodbye.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 07:00 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
There was no harm. All the conservative groups got the tax break that they applied for but did not legally deserve.

An undeserved tax audit is a harm in itself.

Many of those conservative groups were fined and/or had to pay back money that was lawfully theirs, and that financial setback sometimes led to even further financial losses and missed opportunities. That was a considerable harm.
Below viewing threshold (view)
oralloy
 
  -4  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 07:02 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
For your and this Jim Geraghty's information, they kneel to attract attention towards, and express their disgust about cops murdering black people with impunity in their country.

That is incorrect. Cops are not murdering black people with impunity in this country.

Also, what BLM scumbags are calling for is for black people to be able to murder police officers with impunity.


Olivier5 wrote:
The players who kneel have more respect for the US than their detractors.

Calling for the murder of police officers is hardly respectful of the country.


Olivier5 wrote:
They expect more of it than their detractors, who seem to be quite happy with a racist police force killing people.

It is hardly racism for police officers to defend themselves when black people try to murder them.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 07:05 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
Only oralloy and his twisted illogic could somehow think that black peope protesting violence against them somehow mean they're publicly calling for murder of police,

A call to harshly punish police officers for daring to defend themselves when black people try to murder them, is a call to prevent police officers from defending themselves when a black person tries to murder them.

The only reason for someone to prevent police officers from defending themselves from murder attempts is because they want the murder attempts to succeed.


MontereyJack wrote:
a claim he has never documented and cannot possibly documented, because it doesn't exist.

Nope. I've repeatedly documented that BLM goons are all about wanting to harshly punish police officers whenever they dare to defend themselves from a black person who tries to murder them.


MontereyJack wrote:
Yet he keeps repeating it and repeating it and NEVER provides any proof.

Wrong again. I've repeatedly linked to BLM goons actively calling for police to be harshly punished whenever they dare to defend themselves from a black person who tries to murder them.


MontereyJack wrote:
Then he endorses a state police officer, who is supposed to defend people's constitutional rightsbut calls people "degenerates"who act on those rights to point out 400 years of continued violence and inequities against them.

Those BLM scumbags are degenerates.


MontereyJack wrote:
Oralloy is retailing racist crap

Liberals always call people racists and/or Nazis when they disagree with liberalism's demented agenda.


MontereyJack wrote:
with faulty logic and nonexistent facts,

Liberalism's disregard of facts and reality does not make facts stop existing. My logic is just fine as well.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 07:08 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You (and the person you link to) are calling this a 'win' for Trump, but what did he win, really?

A bunch of scumbags who thought they would be able to get away with calling for the murder of police officers, found out that maybe they wouldn't get away with it after all. That's a small positive step for America.


Cycloptichorn wrote:
Is the NFL and private citizens' protest an appropriate topic for the Prez to even discuss, let alone focus on at this time?

Yes. It is appropriate that those NFL thugs be called out over their outrageous calls for the murder of police officers.


Cycloptichorn wrote:
I'm going to clue you in on something: being 'right' is quite often not the most important thing.

Being right is pretty darn important. If you start off by being wrong, everything you build on that foundation is worthless.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 07:09 pm
@blatham,
* thumbs up *
oralloy
 
  -3  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 07:10 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
Putin must be so proud.

Putin was hoping that NATO would be disbanded by this point. I think he's a little disappointed.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 07:13 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:
The near perfect alignment between Bannon's and Putin's goals and propaganda strategies would, you'd think, catch the attention of more conservatives. But I'm sure it hasn't escaped the notice of Meuller and his team.

The nice thing about this country is, even when witchhunting Democrats try to persecute people who disagree with them, the courts require them to have actual proof of actual crimes before any punishment is administered.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 07:15 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
The mentality of the fans should be analyzed.

Maybe they disapprove of cop-killing thugs.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 07:16 pm
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:
Excellent question! I seriously doubt that any of our previous Presidents, Republican or Democrat, would focus on this issue or even mention it.

Previous Republican presidents, at least, did not approve of thugs who call for the murder of police officers.


wmwcjr wrote:
Also, notice how much time Trump has spent talking about NFL kneeling as compared to Charlottesville. Why has he spent far more time talking about the NFL?

Trump has spent plenty of time denouncing those antifa goons.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 09:05 pm
@snood,
Never
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -4  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 09:08 pm
@Sturgis,
You should know about what lubricates an asshole. Me, I've no use for the sphincter except as a means of delivery.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 09:27 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Similar to what Homeland Security Elaine Duke’s remarked on Thursday that only a "limited number of deaths … have taken place," and, overall, Puerto Rico was "a good news story"?


given the number of deaths that are being reported, that is truly revolting
0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  5  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 09:32 pm
@oralloy,
Quote Blickers:
Quote:
There was no harm. All the conservative groups got the tax break that they applied for but did not legally deserve.


Quote Oralloy:
Quote:
An undeserved tax audit is a harm in itself.

Many of those conservative groups were fined and/or had to pay back money that was lawfully theirs, and that financial setback sometimes led to even further financial losses and missed opportunities.

Are we talking about the same thing? I thought you meant the IRS matter where 501C groups were getting tax exempt status because they claim they are "social welfare" organizations, even though they clearly were political organizations. Some Democratic organization claimed that tax status and had it granted, even though it was unlikely a true "social welfare" organization. When the tea party conservatives found out about this one organization, hundreds of them claimed to be "social welfare" organizations . The applications went from one to over 100. That's when the IRS decided to actually check if the organization was a "social welfare" organization. At the end, the IRS just went against their own rules and granted these right wing political organizations the tax exempt status they did not actually qualify for. And after the Tea Parties got their tax exempt status that they did not deserve, they keep kvetching for months about it. Sob!-they had to wait a few weeks for it, instead of getting their undeserved tax exempt status right away. Oh, the outrage.
Blickers
 
  4  
Sat 30 Sep, 2017 10:37 pm
@oralloy,
Quote oralloy:
Quote:
If someone in the government and/or part of an ongoing investigation were to try to impede an ongoing investigation, that would be obstruction.

Trump IS part of the investigation. Mueller has been investigating Trump for months for obstruction of justice in firing Comey.

Quote oralloy:
Quote:
No. An official deciding that an investigation should not be pursued is not impeding an ongoing investigation.


It is if he's a target of the investigation. And Trump is.
 

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