192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
snood
 
  9  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 11:53 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I support doing whatever is necessary to keep any of these groups from achieving any sort of success in our society whatsoever.

Although I would stop short of your "only good one is a dead one", I wholeheartedly agree. I'm pretty sure I could only kill if I or someone I care about was in imminent danger of physical harm or death.
ehBeth
 
  7  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 11:55 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Nazis and White Supremacists are not comparable to other social movements in the slightest, as they do not seek coexistence with their fellow man, but instead domination of them. Explicitly! I have no tolerance for this and I believe the vast majority of Americans agree with me.

<snip>

It would have acted as a normalization and signaled an acceptance by society of the radical ideologies of those scumbags.

<snip>


Though it may harm your sense of decency, this cannot be allowed to happen in our society. We must send a clear signal that avowed racists and supremacists are scum who will not be tolerated, and that their fellow citizens will band together to oppose them, to drive them from the public sphere, to marginalize their influence, to destroy their ability to grow in numbers, and ultimately to destroy the lives and careers of those who espouse such things.

<snip>

White Extremists and Nazis are the western equivalent of ISIS members and Islamic extremists. I support doing whatever is necessary to keep any of these groups from achieving any sort of success in our society whatsoever.



from yesterday's demo by Americans in Toronto at the US Consulate

https://i.cbc.ca/1.4246520.1502729460!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_620/toronto-racism-protest.jpg


truth
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  8  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:06 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

Quote:
I support doing whatever is necessary to keep any of these groups from achieving any sort of success in our society whatsoever.

Although I would stop short of your "only good one is a dead one", I wholeheartedly agree. I'm pretty sure I could only kill if I or someone I care about was in imminent danger of physical harm or death.


I'm just going with both my Grandpas on that one. God, I'm so glad they aren't alive to see this ****. They didn't fight in Europe in WW2 to watch Americans walk around giving Nazi salutes, I'm pretty sure my Grandpa from Texas would have punched out ANYONE he saw doing that.

Funny how actually seeing the result of their ideology in person turns someone against for life. I grew up absolutely steeped in contempt and disdain for Nazis and white supremacists and I'll never apologize for opposing them as strongly as I can.

Cycloptichorn
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snood
 
  9  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:13 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
My passion to oppose these sumbitches is pretty strong, too. It wasn't my grandfather, it was my father fighting in WWII.
The difference between punching one out and gunning one down is bigger than I can easily ignore.
0 Replies
 
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emmett grogan
 
  5  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:25 pm
@snood,
Quote:
Re: roger (Post 6484407)
Me too neither, Spanky.


Me neitherer.

Me neitherest, actually.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  8  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:29 pm
@McGentrix,
In this very post, you admit you're making a Slippery Slope argument, but somehow don't understand that it's a fallacy and not a valid argument to forward.

Quote:
Then it will those people that go to a synagogue. They should go too. Then the rich folk, they need to go... It will never stop for people like you who believe only you know right from wrong.


On the contrary, when it comes to Nazism and other forms of extremism, I believe all good people know right from wrong.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  6  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:34 pm
The idea that the modern alt-right movement and traditional Conservatism are not linked is completely belied by the facts:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450469/campus-conservative-organizations-alt-right-platform-free-speech-milo-yiannopoulos-charlottesville-terrorist-attack

Quote:
Campus Conservatives Gave the Alt-Right a Platform


They deserve their fair share of the blame for the entirely predictable consequences of that choice.
By Elliot Kaufman — August 15, 2017

Why did so many otherwise respectable conservative groups host Milo Yiannopoulos, an apologist for the alt-right, on college campuses across America? After the violence in Charlottesville, it’s time we looked in the mirror. Steve Bannon was far from the only man who gave the alt-right a platform to spread its hate.

Remember the first of February, when Berkeley burned amid left-wing riots after Yiannopoulos showed up to speak? Conservatives made it into a national story, and rightfully so. “This is what tolerance looks like at UC Berkeley,” said Mike Wright, a member of the Berkeley College Republicans, at the time. Berkeley’s conservatives were showered with media attention, which they skillfully used to skewer liberal intolerance and political violence.

Perhaps distracted by all the attention or correctly disinclined to blame the victims instead of the perpetrators of violence, nobody bothered to ask why the College Republicans had invited a guy like Yiannopoulos to speak in the first place.

Later that year, Stanford’s conservative publication, the Stanford Review, considered hosting an appearance by Yiannopoulos. A lone graduate student had invited him, but needed to find a student group to sponsor the event. I, an editor at the time, was present in the meetings. “Someone should sponsor his lecture — it’s a matter of free speech,” argued a confused fellow editor. But soon other editors made different arguments: “This will create a huge stir,” said one. “It will drive the social-justice warriors crazy,” offered another.

This was certainly true, and a point worth considering. Campus leftists would definitely have protested the event, and might even have tried to shut it down. As one influential editor put it: “Best-case scenario is that the SJWs freak out and we get another Berkeley.” We all knew what he meant: Inviting Yiannopoulos could bait the Left to do something silly and destructive, drawing media coverage that would allow us to act as martyrs for free speech on campus. That is, the left-wing riots were not the price or downside of inviting Yiannopoulos — they were the attraction.

This makes a certain, perverse sense. Campus conservative groups face three undying challenges: They are always broke, their leaders are always about to graduate, and nobody on campus ever cares about what they have to say. Consequently, conservatives from Louisiana State University, Boulder, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Washington, and dozens of other campuses turned to Yiannopoulos. He charges no speaking fees and, with minimal effort and planning from the students, guarantees them attention and controversy. He gives conservative student groups everything they could want.

But it comes at a cost: Every invitation extended to Yiannopoulos validates the idea that his alternately childish and hateful views are in some way “conservative.”

Yiannopoulos was once a legitimate, if failed, British technology journalist. In fact, it was from his perch as a technology writer at Breitbart that he gained prominence for his early coverage of the “Gamergate” controversy, supporting the online harassment of feminist video-game programmers and tech bloggers. From there, he began to heap praise on Donald Trump, whom he calls “Daddy,” and to become an aggressive online culture warrior.

He delights in offending or “triggering” leftists. He labels them “snowflakes,” mocking their delicate sensibilities, while also calling them “fascists” for opposing free speech. In this, he can also delight the Right. Campus conservatives often defended him as “provocative” but ultimately useful for his defense of free speech. But that hides the truth.

In March 2016, Yiannopoulos co-authored “An Establishment Conservative’s Guide to the Alt-Right” at Breitbart. In it, he denies that the alt-right is bigoted. Instead, he says, they just seek to “fluster their grandparents” with “outrageous caricatures,” including anti-Semitic ones. Yiannopoulos takes great pains to differentiate the alt-right from skinheads. “The alternative right are a much smarter group of people,” he writes, “which perhaps suggests why the Left hates them so much. They’re dangerously bright.”

He then explains just whom he finds so intelligent. “The media empire of the modern-day alternative right coalesced around Richard Spencer,” writes Yiannopoulos. This is the same Richard Spencer who promoted the rally in Charlottesville and marched next to neo-Nazis and Klansmen. In fact, Spencer’s speech headlined the rally. (Tim Gionet, better known as “Baked Alaska,” served as Yiannopoulos’s tour manager in 2016, scheduling his appearances with campus Republican groups. He, too, showed up to speak in Charlottesville, holding up a torch, chanting that Jews “will not replace us,” and claiming, “I’m proud to be white,” alongside a flurry of Nazi salutes.)

“The alt-right’s intellectuals would also argue that culture is inseparable from race,” Yiannopoulos openly admitted in his article. But he went on to defend them on these exact terms. “The bulk of their demands, after all, are not so audacious: they want their own communities, populated by their own people, and governed by their own values,” he writes. According to Yiannopoulos, “they want what every people fighting for self-determination in history have ever wanted.”

This was an outright apologia for racist white separatism. And yet, time after time in 2016, campus Republicans held Yiannopoulos up to the world as their champion against the Left. Even as he made statements like “The Jews run everything” and “I don’t generally employ gays, I don’t trust them,” he continued to be invited.

To defend himself from charges of anti-Semitism, Milo occasionally calls himself Jewish. Actually, he is a Roman Catholic, and has even posted photos of himself wearing the Iron Cross so beloved by Nazis everywhere. To counter charges of homophobia and racism, he told the New York Times that he has sex only with black men, in essence using identity politics to defend his own bigotry. Jamie Kirchick has astutely characterized him as a “caricature of what resentful, misanthropic, frat bros believe a gay man to be: morally depraved, sexually licentious, and utterly self-aggrandizing.”

All of this is to say that even before videos surfaced revealing his endorsement of pedophilia, Yiannopoulos’s derangement was obvious. Anyone who did even a cursory Google search would have quickly concluded that giving him a platform was a bad idea. But the Berkeley College Republicans gave him a platform anyway, and they were not alone in that choice.

In short, campus groups helped make Yiannopoulos and his alt-right sympathies more popular, and gave him the attention he craves in spades. But their actions couldn’t be justified then and can’t be justified now, no matter how much media attention they yielded.

None of this is restricted to the lead-up to the turbulent 2016 election. For the fall of 2017, Columbia University’s College Republicans plan to host alt-right popularizer Mike Cernovich as well as the English Defence League’s Tommy Robinson. If other groups copy them, Yiannopoulos may come to look relatively benign in comparison.

On Saturday, we watched videos of alt-right leaders chanting about white pride alongside actual Nazis — at a rally in which a white supremacist killed someone. If it wasn’t already, it should now be clear that a portion of the campus Right has disgraced itself.


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -4  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:43 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I don't think you do as you've bandied about white nationalism and nazi and skin head all together as some great satan to be feared. Are these all the "Alt-right" in your eyes?

That's what extremists do. They villainize their foe's to justify violence against them. I hate, HATE that I have to be in the position to defend these filthy heathens right to think and speak. I hate that you've put me in a position to have to say these people have the same rights in America as everyone else whether I agree with them or not.

I think the Antifa demonstrators are the opposite side of the same coin as the white power people. They just cover their faces so they don't have to worry about their jobs being threatened or their families informed. But, those shitbags should also be allowed to do their shtick and make their speeches and peacefully assemble as well.

The assholes going to the protests, inciting violence and generally being a nuisance have got to go. They are not peacefully assembled and the only speech they are making is to drown out their opponents speech.
maporsche
 
  6  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:55 pm
@McGentrix,
Peaceful assembly is critical IMO.

But, to use my speech to drown out my opponents speech isn't a problem in my point of view...and vice-versa.
Cycloptichorn
 
  5  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:58 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

I don't think you do as you've bandied about white nationalism and nazi and skin head all together as some great satan to be feared. Are these all the "Alt-right" in your eyes?


Not entirely, though they clearly sympathize with these groups. Some of the 'alt-right' are simply Nationalists with no particular odious opinions, others are people disgusted with the GOP's weakness. It's unfair to tar the entire alt-right with the same brush, which is why I prefer to focus on those who specifically advocate extremism and racism.

Quote:
That's what extremists do. They villainize their foe's to justify violence against them. I hate, HATE that I have to be in the position to defend these filthy heathens right to think and speak. I hate that you've put me in a position to have to say these people have the same rights in America as everyone else whether I agree with them or not.


They do have the same rights! Nobody is talking about removing any of their rights at all. Instead, we're talking about asserting our rights to denounce and destroy them using our free speech.

Quote:
I think the Antifa demonstrators are the opposite side of the same coin as the white power people. They just cover their faces so they don't have to worry about their jobs being threatened or their families informed. But, those shitbags should also be allowed to do their shtick and make their speeches and peacefully assemble as well.


I actually know quite a few of these people, and I've never once heard them advocate anything resembling racism or totalitarianism in the way that Nazis and White Supremacists do. You are making a false equivalence between the two groups, which is easy to do but lazy.

However, I don't disagree with you: they should uncover their faces and OWN their conviction to the cause.

Cycloptichorn
Real Music
 
  7  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 01:10 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
But even if some people use the flag for racist purposes, that does not change that others do not.
Why does that even matter when the confederate flag in our dark American history is and has symbolized the KKK, slavery, lynchings, cross burnings, and many other horrific acts of racial terrorism? There is such a thing as human decency and sensitivity. Flying the confederate flag while knowing about the racial history and symbolism of the flag shows a lack sensitivity and human decency.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  5  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 01:15 pm
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/15526/production/_97343378_captwg4ure.jpg
Quote:
US President Donald Trump has posted an image of a train hitting a CNN reporter three days after a hit-and-run left one person dead at a far-right rally.
The cartoon, which Mr Trump deleted after tweeting, depicts the cable network logo being run over by a "Trump Train" symbolising his supporters.
The president also apparently accidentally retweeted a post by someone calling him "a fascist".
Mr Trump is in New York where he faces a second day of protests.
White House officials told NBC the train image - captioned "Fake news can't stop the Trump Train" - had been "inadvertently posted" and when "noticed it was immediately deleted".
In another presumably unintentional retweet, the US president shared - and then also deleted - a post by someone who said of him: "He's a fascist, so not unusual."
The Twitter user, @MikeHolden, had been commenting on a Fox report saying that Mr Trump could be planning to pardon Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who was found guilty in July of racially profiling Hispanic people.
Mr Holden, of Burnley, England, promptly changed his Twitter bio to read: "Officially Endorsed by the President of the United States. I wish that were a good thing."
Asked by the BBC if he thinks the "endorsement" ended when Mr Trump deleted the tweet he laughed and said: "Oh, absolutely. I don't think he really meant to endorse it.
"I don't think he intended to say, 'yup, that's me, the big ol' fascist!'"
"I'm an internet nobody!" added Mr Holden, a 53-year-old IT consultant, adding the response has been "absolutely bananas".
"It's rare you get that kind of attention from the president, isn't it?" Mr Holden added.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40940044
ehBeth
 
  4  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 01:19 pm
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/opinions/fascism-and-its-name-michael-weiss-opinion/index.html

just dropping off the summary

the opinion piece has some good links

Quote:
I'm probably the last person to comment on how our normally outspoken president has expended more rhetorical fire and fury on Meryl Streep, Mitch McConnell and Jeff Sessions than he has on what, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, could be the "largest hate-gathering of its kind in decades in America," leaving it to his Jewish-convert daughter to condemn such an event in more candid language.


But even in national tragedy, Donald Trump has got a point, if only by accident. He ran for office by railing against runaway political correctness and the nationwide failure to call threats to the US by their rightful name.


Hence the insistence on "radical Islamic terrorism" in lieu of the ridiculous "man-caused disaster" of the Obama era. But when it comes to a dangerous pathology of even older vintage, one which he has done nothing to acknowledge or confront, our tell-it-like-it-is commander-in-chief is just as guilty as the liberal establishment he claims to hate.


Fascism is alive and well in America. The only harm is in not saying so.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  6  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 01:53 pm
@izzythepush,
Yup, that's the President of the United States making an official statement normalizing violence against people, groups or organizations he disagrees with.
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maporsche
 
  9  
Tue 15 Aug, 2017 02:15 pm
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech.png
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech.png

Title text: I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express.
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