@Finn dAbuzz,
Let me begin by thanking you for taking the time to write out long posts. In the interests of brevity, I'm only going to respond to part of them; if you feel that I'm dodging the discussion by omitting a response to something you felt was important, let me know and I'll respond more specifically.
Quote:Granted, they are scum but it sounds like you are prepared to use violence (which you yourself have clearly defined as illegal) to prevent them from speaking at your locale. Why is that?
The short answer is that the violence is worth the consequences. There are certain ideologies that are simply beyond the pale and not tolerable, because they are extremist in nature and failure to aggressively attack them simply allows them to grow to the point where their adherents start killing people. It's not enough to ignore or attempt to passively marginalize Nazis or white supremacists. Why? The answer is simple: the end game of both of those groups is the armed overthrow of our society. Explicitly. The idea that this is just a 'joke' and will fizzle out is a false one. If we do nothing, more and more misguided youth will be radicalized and attach themselves to them. It's like chopping out cancer before it metastasizes.
If some people have to pay a price for curing society of the cancer, so be it. Nazis and White Supremacists are not comparable to other social movements in the slightest, as they do not seek coexistence with their fellow man, but instead domination of them. Explicitly! I have no tolerance for this and I believe the vast majority of Americans agree with me. I'll say it directly:
the only good Nazi is a dead one.
Quote:There may come a time when ordinary American citizens must make a momentous decision to illegally engage in violence in an effort to preserve life and liberty for themselves, their families and their fellow Americans, but do you honestly believe we are at that point in time in this country?
Yup. Some of you are unwilling to admit it, but the election of Trump was an extremely dangerous moment for us and a signal that extremism is on the rise. I don't expect that to turn around quickly and we're going to have to continue to confront this problem for some time.
Here's a piece for you to read:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/is-america-headed-for-a-new-kind-of-civil-war
Quote:“We keep saying, ‘It can’t happen here,’ but then, holy smokes, it can,” Mines told me after we talked, on Sunday, about Charlottesville. The pattern of civil strife has evolved worldwide over the past sixty years. Today, few civil wars involve pitched battles from trenches along neat geographic front lines. Many are low-intensity conflicts with episodic violence in constantly moving locales. Mines’s definition of a civil war is large-scale violence that includes a rejection of traditional political authority and requires the National Guard to deal with it. On Saturday, McAuliffe put the National Guard on alert and declared a state of emergency.
Based on his experience in civil wars on three continents, Mines cited five conditions that support his prediction: entrenched national polarization, with no obvious meeting place for resolution; increasingly divisive press coverage and information flows; weakened institutions, notably Congress and the judiciary; a sellout or abandonment of responsibility by political leadership; and the legitimization of violence as the “in” way to either conduct discourse or solve disputes.
President Trump “modeled violence as a way to advance politically and validated bullying during and after the campaign,” Mines wrote in Foreign Policy. “Judging from recent events the left is now fully on board with this,” he continued, citing anarchists in anti-globalization riots as one of several flashpoints. “It is like 1859, everyone is mad about something and everyone has a gun.”
Our societal peace is more fragile than people realize.
Quote:If the Neo-Nazis and KKK, in Charlottesville , had conducted their demonstrations, that were at the same time loathsome and infantile, but no violence of any sort had ensued, what would have been the harm to the community or the nation that was so severe it would have justified people using violent and illegal means to prevent it?
It would have acted as a normalization and signaled an acceptance by society of the radical ideologies of those scumbags. This serves to draw more people to the cause, especially as traditional politicians fail them due to problems with our systems. How many Republicans do you think turned to Ethno-Nationalist Populism out of disgust with their own politicians? Lots of them that I've seen.
Though it may harm your sense of decency, this cannot be allowed to happen in our society. We must send a clear signal that avowed racists and supremacists are scum who will not be tolerated, and that their fellow citizens will band together to oppose them, to drive them from the public sphere, to marginalize their influence, to destroy their ability to grow in numbers, and ultimately to destroy the lives and careers of those who espouse such things.
Quote:Do you believe that it would have, in some way, served to normalize racism? Similar marches in the past haven't done so; why now?
We've elected a known racist and proponent of political violence as president. These guys see this as a signal that it's their time to rise up. They literally say this! You should try listening to them instead of attacking those of us who DO listen to them.
Quote:We know that the FBI maintains a watchful eye on their organizations and their membership, and this is right and proper.
The Trump admin doesn't give two shits about white extremism, downplays it constantly, ignores it when events happen (unless literally forced to comment), cuts funding for groups who track and fight it, and welcomes the support of avowed racists and Nazis. They literally have an avowed Nazi in their admin (Gorka). You can't say with confidence that our government is taking this seriously at this time.
Quote:
This is a more disturbing statement than your veiled threat to commit violence against racist speakers in your community as it can be achieved with anonymity, in the comfort of your kitchen and in avoidance of any consequences at all. In short, it's the sort of work a self-righteous coward can apply himself to with vigor.
You may describe me using whatever terms make you feel good about yourself and your argument, it's nothing to me. In the end, we still accomplish our goals and your criticisms mean nothing.
Quote:Just how does someone make your list of known racists or supporters of known racists?
A few ways:
- Attending white supremacy or Nazi rallies (like the one this weekend). If you're caught on video or picture there, you're on the list. Own it when we tell your employers and your family about your penchant for hate cosplay.
- Posting racist or supremacist **** online anonymously. We doxx those people. Own it when we tell your employers and your family about your true feelings and inner hate.
- Getting caught on video using racist or bigoted speech. Same as above.
Quote:How does your little Star Chamber decide whose careers and lives are to be ruined? What sort of tactics will you employ? Have you already been successful with any of your targets?
We use our own judgement to decide; nothing else is required, including your or anyone else's agreement with our actions. And yes, we have been successful (though I cannot personally claim to any specific success based on my direct action). There are quite a few people who have been fired once it's revealed that they are racists and supremacists. Whose families have disowned them due to the hate they espouse. Makes me happy every time I read about it.
And, I don't understand what the objection to this is. If you have an opinion that you hold strongly enough to voice it? Own it! Like to use racial slurs behind an anonymous username? Own your speech and opinions! If you're a racist, have the courage of your convictions! We're just letting everyone in your life know about it, so they can make their own judgements about how to treat you in the future.
Quote:Your statement that you are willing to accept the consequences of using illegal means to stop racists from speaking in your community is admirable in that the vast majority of your fellow social justice warriors are clearly not...hence the masks. Should you knock out a Neo-Nazi who has come to your community to give a racist hate speech, please look into the camera that films you being taken into custody by the police and give us a sign so that we can recognize you. Given your nom de guerre, might I suggest that you point your index finger to the center of your forehead?
I absolutely would do so. Why take an action and try to escape the consequences of doing so? Now THAT would be cowardly.
I'll close by saying that I don't consider myself a 'social justice warrior.' I don't care for 'safe spaces' and I believe that the modern liberal-youth movement to silence Conservatives is wrong-headed. I don't particularly identify with those who crusade for social rights. My ONLY concern in this area is to stamp out and rid our society of the evils (and I mean that sincerely) of those who promote repugnant ideologies in our country.
White Extremists and Nazis are the western equivalent of ISIS members and Islamic extremists. I support doing whatever is necessary to keep any of these groups from achieving any sort of success in our society whatsoever. You may feel however you like about this; we're not going to stop.
Cycloptichorn
