192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
djjd62
 
  5  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 06:25 am
@hightor,
any speech that last more than 30 seconds is one i'm sure to hate
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  6  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 06:58 am
Lash is getting herself tied in knots. In 2016, she pretended to be a Bernie Sanders supporter, because she hoped to torpedo Clinton. Now she's on about "fascists" and the future of the Democratic Party. The very people whom she, and all the would-be demagogues of the far right, describe as fascists are the young people who supported Sanders. She and her fellow right-wingers display their ignorance. Mussolini was a socialist newspaperman, who "saw the light" and joined the Fascist Party in Italy. The Fascists claimed to support labor, but quickly got in bed with industrialist and capitalists. Hitler did the same thing. Sent out to investigate a small, obscure German political party, headed in Munich by Anton Drexler, Hitler saw the potential of wedding nationalism, antisemitism and anti-Marxism to this obscure party attempting to appeal to labor. Hence the NSDAP, the National Socialist German Workers' Party. Just as was done in Italy, while loudly proclaiming their pro-labor policies, they got in bed with the industrialists and capitalists. Hitler rose to power by allying himself to the DVP, the German Peoples' Party, a far right wing party, a conservative party.

Now witless and simple-minded American conservatives see the word socialist, and attempt to claim that fascists were and are leftists. There is a crushing irony in calling the people who don't run the government fascists. There is a second crushing irony in calling leftists fascists. The fascists were only ever a conservative movement, who attempted to co-opt socialism and Marxism, in order to gain the support of labor. The Falange in Spain were doing the same thing. Franco was a little more honest, in that he dropped all pretense of being pro-labor as soon as he got in power.

The fascists, whether in Italy, or the German NSDAP or the Spanish Falange, were conservatives seeking to manipulate labor away from the left and to get them on-side with the right, the conservatives. No young American supporters of leftist causes or of Bernie Sanders has any resemblance to fascists, and as they are politically powerless, calling them fascists is just another ugly joke ot the tortured "logic" of American extremist conservatives.

Lash has jumped onto the right-wing bandwagon with bullshit about rising fascism in the United States, and a phony concern for the future of the Democratic Party. Her only concern with the Democrats is to sabotage them. If there are people who deserve the name of fascist in the United States, their leaders and paymasters are the Koch brothers. They are the far right of the conservatives in the United States, which readily explains why some of their adherents parade around with Nazi flags. The most hilarious, idiotic and alarming convolution of this goofy propaganda is the claim that "fascists" are attempting to destroy free speech. All extremists, whether of the left or the right, want to suppress free speech, because it's their biggest ideological enemy. But the rules apply to both sides. From the first amendment to the constitution: "Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." The constitution is, of course, a document of which the far right constantly demonstrate themselves to be completely ignorant, and they don't care. President Plump took an oath to preserve, protect and defend the constitution, and then went on national television to call it antiquated and to say the it needs to be replaced. Therefore, of course, Plump is forsworn--he lied in that oath.

Lash had gotten herself tangled up in this hilarious, tangled and sinister propaganda. She's a complete sham, and too ignorant of history, and specifically the history of fascism, to see that.

Oh! What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive

Fascists are, and always have been conservatives. No true fascist has ever supported Bernie Sanders, and Lash has been lying about that for more than a year.
revelette1
 
  7  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 07:14 am
The neo Nazi's and white supremacy groups have the right to protest and free speech, but so do the counter protestors have the right to protest their hateful and racist rhetoric.

Trump should have said racist and Nazi's have no decent place in our society rather than equalizing the two sides. He is in effect normalizing hateful bigotry and supporting white supremacy/Nazi groups by not condemning them. They have the right to free speech, but all decent people have the right to condemn them and Trump should have done so.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  6  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 07:18 am
@Setanta,
You're certainly right, Set.

Some haven't been taught history, don't have access to the internet or a library nowadays, or they are just ignoring (historical) facts because they don't want changes their narrow world view.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -2  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 07:20 am
@Setanta,
A lot of blather from a blowhard who told me the term 'neoliberalism' didn't exist. After a little googling, he backtracked and obfuscated.

He knows less about me than he did neoliberalism.

I hate the goddam democrat party as much as I do the republicans. I AM interested in being a part of a new people's party, and I'm working with other people to try to make that happen.

I don't fall in line with parties.

I own a gun.
I support gay rights.
I hate censorship.
I hate abortion, but don't think it's sensible for it to be illegal.
I despise corruption in politics.
I support $15. and single payer, yet I am concerned about trusting my government not to squander the money coming in to pay for it.
I respect diplomacy, and hate war. I was wrong about Iraq and I don't feel bad about admitting that.
I hate the drone murders my country- including Obama- is guilty of.
I despise my country spying on private citizens and storing their data.
I support whistleblowers.

I don't fit neatly into any ideology.
I don't have to.
Setanta
 
  0  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 07:36 am
@Lash,
Liar, liar, pants on fire.

If you want to play the name-calling game, little girl, we can do that.
0 Replies
 
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emmett grogan
 
  5  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 09:23 am
@Lash,
Poop.

I agree with every single simple unambiguous thing you said from "He knows less about me ... " on.

I guess I didn't get to know you so well in the few weeks I've been here.
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  6  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 09:31 am
@Lash,
As I said before, Ann Coulter had the right to speak at the University, but so did the students have the right the right to protest her speaking at their university if they disagree with her views. Free speech works both ways. If she actually came and they resorted to violence to disrupt her, then, that would be going beyond their right for free speech. It is really not as complicated as you make out.
blatham
 
  9  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 09:34 am
Putin escapes criticism from Trump.
White supremacists escape criticism from Trump.
American nazis carrying swastika flags escape criticism from Trump.
Nigel Farange escapes criticism from Trump.
Le Pen escapes criticism from Trump.
And then there's this:
Quote:
Donald J. Trump‏Verified account
@realDonaldTrump
The Theater must always be a safe and special place.The cast of Hamilton was very rude last night to a very good man, Mike Pence. Apologize!
5:56 AM - 19 Nov 2016
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  8  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 09:39 am
Black youth on ground. White supremacists with clubs.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHET0EsXkAIcwcZ.jpg
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 09:43 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

But the point is: is Bernie a fascist? No, not anymore than I am. We just realize that every freedom has its limits. Calls for racial hatred are dangerous for society and should rightly be banned in free societies.

Would you be in favour of Al Qaeda staging a "peaceful demonstration" in Ground Zero? If free speech is absolute, why not?


And Lash isn't a Neo-Nazi anymore than I am. We just revere free speech more than you and others do. The ACLU has defended both the KKK and Neo-Nazis based on their freedoms of speech and assembly. Do you consider them supporters of White Supremacists? Did they choose to join those camps when they took legal action to protect their constitutional rights?

Is racial hatred the only source of speech which you would like to ban?

I suppose that like emmett bobsal you base your argument for banning hate speech on the fighting words decision (Assuming you are aware of it. Your knowledge and appreciation of our Constitution is understandably limited given that you are not an American).

Quote:
...so between the Nazis and the anti-Nazis, you and Lash have chosen your camp


I wouldn't be surprised if you now try to slip out of the ramifications of this statement, but it should be clear to everyone that you were accusing us of having philosophically joined the Nazi Camp and defending (if not condoning) the violence of the Neo-Nazis in Charlottesville. It's difficult to imagine that a Frenchman wouldn't see that this as a hateful statement, and I can't speak for Lash, but I certainly see it that way. If you made it in our presence one or both of us might consider it to contain "fighting words" and sock you in the beak. We wouldn't necessarily be protected from the legal ramifications of our action, but do you think it might serve to qualify your statement as the sort of speech that free societies should ban?

Again, I won't speak for Lash but I wouldn't favor Al Qaeda staging a demonstration anywhere, let alone Ground Zero, anymore than I favored the demonstration in Charlottesville. As well, since I suspect that most members of Al Qaeda are wanted by the FBI, it would be a difficult event to organize. The freedoms of speech and assembly don't offer temporary immunity to suspected felons. Finally, I don't know if there are any statutes in place that prohibit demonstrations of any sort in proximity to Ground Zero. I would not have any problem with such restrictions, and if they exist, I certainly would not argue that they be lifted, even temporarily, to accommodate your hypothetical demonstration.

However, since you shouldn't necessarily be faulted for a poorly constructed hypothetical while in the throes of your passion for this subject, let's modify it so that it allows for a proper analogy to yesterday's event:

Quote:
Would you support the right of Muslim Americans to stage a demonstration on September 11 and in the vicinity of Ground Zero; knowing that speakers (who might not be American citizens) and attendees are certain to spew hateful rhetoric not only about America, but about the people who died on 9/11/01?


Yes, and I bet Lash would too.

NYC would need to provide the group with a permit, but I'm quite certain that Mayor Bill Big Bird DiBlasio would have no problem doing so, even if the NYPD leadership advised against it. Of course it would be a major challenge for the NYPD as they would need to do all they could to manage the inevitable counter-demonstrations, and provide for the safety of anyone in the area during the event. If there is a police force in the world that could manage such a Herculean task, it's the NYPD.

Of course, if any of the speakers or attendees ventured into speech intended to incite violence, or constituted an immediate and practical threat of violence, I would expect the NYPD to step in and shut them down.

The key flaw in your hypothetical is the one most telling relative to your inability to grasp our position: Defending the right of American citizens to say hateful things is not the equivalent of favoring or agreeing with the hateful things they say.



hightor
 
  8  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 09:45 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
No young American supporters of leftist causes or of Bernie Sanders has any resemblance to fascists, and as they are politically powerless, calling them fascists is just another ugly joke ot the tortured "logic" of American extremist conservatives.


Good post.

Debasing our political vocabulary by turning a once-meaningful label into a pejorative epithet to be applied to the "other" is symptomatic of the low level of political discourse which characterizes so much of our civic dialog these days.

I think we can pretty safely characterize the people who came to "Unite the Right" around a symbol of the old Confederacy as being made up of white nationalists, racists, America firsters, neo-nazis, and certainly a number of people who simply hold the traditions of the Old South as somehow sacrosanct.

The people who came to demonstrate in opposition are similarly varied in their beliefs. They include Bernie supporters to be sure, anti-racists, civil rights activists, and people who simply felt the need to confront the Right so as not to let it be thought that the rally reflected the opinion of all the citizens of Charlottesville.

Among the protestors were a number of anarchists who came primarily as provocateurs. I don't think anyone knows what percentage of the demonstrators were aligned with this group and I think it is intellectually lazy to characterize each side by the behavior of its most obnoxious representatives. And I think it is even worse to apply the term "fascist" to people who reject the legitimacy of government itself. Call them "thugs", "provos", or "outside agitators" if you want. But they are not "fascists" — the use of violence in a political context is not a definition of fascism. It seems especially egregious when many of the rally attendees openly wore swastikas and were seen giving Nazi salutes.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  7  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 09:50 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Defending the right of American citizens to say hateful things is not the equivalent of favoring or agreeing with the hateful things they say.

Yup. And I, for one, am very suspicious of "The State" (shudder) determining what constitutes "hate" and what might simply be a case of anger or ignorance.
0 Replies
 
emmett grogan
 
  5  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 09:50 am
@hightor,
The SCOTUS and federal, state and local laws that say that "Hate Speech" is speech made to cause intentional harm is crime:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

Some limits on expression were contemplated by the framers and have been defined by the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS). Starting in the 1940s U.S states began passing hate speech laws. In Beauharnais v. Illinois the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the state of Illinois's hate speech laws. Illinois's laws punished expression that was offensive to racial ethnic and religious groups. After Beauharnais v. Illinois, the Supreme Court developed a free speech jurisprudence that loosened most aspects of the free speech doctrine.[87] In 1942, Justice Frank Murphy summarized the case law: "There are certain well-defined and limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise a Constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous and the insulting or 'fighting' words – those which by their very utterances inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace."[88]

Traditionally, however, if the speech did not fall within one of the above categorical exceptions, it was protected speech. In 1969, the Supreme Court protected a Ku Klux Klan member’s speech and created the "imminent danger" test to determine on what grounds speech can be limited. The court ruled in Brandenburg v. Ohio that; "The constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a state to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force, or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action."[89]

This test has been modified very little from its inception in 1969 and the formulation is still good law in the United States. Only speech that poses an imminent danger of unlawful action, where the speaker has the intention to incite such action and there is the likelihood that this will be the consequence of his or her speech, may be restricted and punished by that law.

In R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul, (1992), the issue of banning hate speech arose again when a gang of white people burned a cross in the front yard of a black family. The local ordinance in St. Paul, Minnesota, criminalized such expressions considered racist and the teenager was charged thereunder. Associate Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the Supreme Court, held that the prohibition against hate speech was unconstitutional as it contravened the First Amendment. The Supreme Court struck down the ordinance. Scalia explicated the fighting words exception as follows: “The reason why fighting words are categorically excluded from the protection of the First Amendment is not that their content communicates any particular idea, but that their content embodies a particularly intolerable (and socially unnecessary) mode of expressing whatever idea the speaker wishes to convey”.[90] Because the hate speech ordinance was not concerned with the mode of expression, but with the content of expression, it was a violation of the freedom of speech. Thus, the Supreme Court embraced the idea that speech in general is permissible unless it will lead to imminent violence.[91] The opinion noted "This conduct, if proved, might well have violated various Minnesota laws against arson, criminal damage to property", among a number of others, none of which was charged, including threats to any person, not to only protected classes.

In 2011, the Supreme Court issued their ruling on Snyder v. Phelps, which concerned the right of the Westboro Baptist Church to protest with signs found offensive by many Americans. The issue presented was whether the 1st Amendment protected the expressions written on the signs. In an 8–1 decision the court sided with Fred Phelps, the head of Westboro Baptist Church, thereby confirming their historically strong protection of freedom of speech, so long as it doesn't promote imminent violence. The Court explained, "speech deals with matters of public concern when it can 'be fairly considered as relating to any matter of political, social, or other concern to the community' or when it 'is a subject of general interest and of value and concern to the public."[92]
Societal implementation

In the 1980s and 1990s, more than 350 public universities adopted "speech codes" regulating discriminatory speech by faculty and students.[93] These codes have not fared well in the courts, where they are frequently overturned as violations of the First Amendment.[94] Debate over restriction of "hate speech" in public universities has resurfaced with the adoption of anti-harassment codes covering discriminatory speech.[95]
NTIA report

In 1992, Congress directed the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) to examine the role of telecommunications, including broadcast radio and television, cable television, public access television, and computer bulletin boards, in advocating or encouraging violent acts and the commission of hate crimes against designated persons and groups. The NTIA study investigated speech that fostered a climate of hatred and prejudice in which hate crimes may occur.[96] The study failed to link telecommunication to hate crimes, but did find that "individuals have used telecommunications to disseminate messages of hate and bigotry to a wide audience." Its recommendation was that the best way to fight hate speech was through additional speech promoting tolerance, as opposed to government regulation.[97][98]
0 Replies
 
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blatham
 
  7  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 10:17 am
We now better understand where the intellectual and moral failure to distinguish via the "both sides are equivalent" axiom can take a culture.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -4  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 10:17 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I agreed with your sentiment almost exactly. I damn well didn't favor the confederate flag rally, nor would I favor AQ, but I'd stop short of any effort to deny them peaceful assembly.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  4  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 10:28 am
Quote:
There are people in Washington DC working against President Donald Trump, the former White House communications director Anthony Scaramucci has said.
He said there were "elements" within the White House trying to eject Mr Trump, and he had "named some names".
Mr Scaramucci spoke to ABC News for the first time since being sacked last month - after just 10 days in office.
"What happens in Washington... is the president is not a representative of the political establishment class, so for whatever reason the people have made a decision that they want to eject him," he told George Stephanopoulos of ABC News on Sunday.
"I think there are elements inside of Washington, also inclusive in the White House, that are not necessarily abetting the president's interests or his agenda."
However, he said the president needed to bring in "more loyalists" in order to carry out his agenda.
The Wall Street financier criticised the influence of Mr Bannon and the right-wing Breitbart News website that he was the driving force behind.
He suggested the president needed to move more towards the mainstream and moderates in order to push through "a very successful legislative agenda".


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40917640
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Sun 13 Aug, 2017 10:47 am
One point that people on the right ignore about student protests against public speakers is that students' fees are used to pay public speakers. When their money is being used to pay someone to speak whom they loathe, they are justified to protest. Calling them antifa is the more hilarious from American conservatives who turn around and call them fascists. Antifa is an acronym for an anti-fascist group. Really, you jokers need to get your political act together and stop shooting off your mouths about things you don't understand.
 

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