192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
Below viewing threshold (view)
ossobucotemp
 
  3  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:36 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Ah, well, I agree with the guy, Eugene Robinson, whom I don't remember reading before... but I'm not a major newswriter name memorizer.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:36 am
@layman,
Having seen him a few times on TV before he joined the White House, I was pretty surprised by his profanity ridden rant to the NYT reporter. He always came across as well spoken and even keeled. He also seemed, at least when I saw him, fairly moderate... to the extent that he disagreed with some of the wilder claims and suggestions of Trump Supporters who were appearing with him.

The stuff that is going on between him and Priebus and Bannon is a marked departure from the image he previously displayed. I hope it's an aberration that he will discard, because Trump certainly doesn't need a Communications Director who communicates in the same way he does.

I figured a shakeup in the White House was coming and thought it was needed, and, at first, I thought it was a great idea to bring in the Mooch, but it certainly seems like he might think he was brought in to replace Priebus as Chief of Staff. If he was, all fine and well, but Trump needs to make it happen clearly and quickly and not allow chaos to replace dysfunction.

It seems like he thinks it's good executive management to set his subordinates against one another in a managerial dog fight, on the theory that the one most suited to the task will prove victorious.

If that's the way he ran his business, it's amazing he had any success. It's stupid and self-defeating on numerous levels and not the least of which is that the winner is always going to harbor resentment that he or she was forced to go at a rival with fang and claw, particularly if that winner was an incumbent.

This sort of Darwinian Management Theory seldom works and is more likely to lead to a revolving door for subordinate executives than long term stability or loyalty. It's usually employed by the senior most guy as much for sport as effectiveness, and, of course, never involves him or her.

I've never met a senior executive (and I have met many) who after going through this sort Gladiatorial School of Management themselves decided it was the way they would run their company.

I really thought that as a successful business man Trump would nail this part of the job, but it's where most of his problems are coming from. There is such a thing as creative destruction and temporary chaos can sometimes bring out the best leadership qualities in people, but rarely can it happen when the chaos is prolonged or manufactured by the boss. When a company is beset by externally sourced adversity that can lead to temporary chaos in the executive offices, generally speaking the executive group will come together to work as a team to save their collective asses. There will always be those who care only about their personal posterior and the company be damned, but they are easy to spot and eliminate. However there will also often be one or two individuals who shine. Sometimes the leadership exhibited will be unexpected, but that doesn't make it any less valuable.

In the absence of any leadership, problems won't be solved and the chaos will not eventually be overcome by order. If that happens the company is doomed and the rats will all leap off the sinking ship. Even good and strong executives will eventually be worn to dust by never ending chaos and strife.

His inability to coherently and effectively manage the White House is causing me increasing irritation and frustration. Whatever model he is applying, if any, is clearly not effective, and the dysfunctional environment of the White House is hamstringing his agenda. It pisses me off because I voted for him hoping he would get certain things done. He's come through on several of those things which means he's capable of coming through on others, but self-inflicted wounds are making that harder and less probable...and it's such an easy thing to fix! Or it should be for someone who has a brilliant master plan.

I don't want to him to be a total failure because only a partisan **** heel ever wants the president to totally fail (Failing on certain agenda items is one thing but going down in flames is something entirely different) and I support a lot of items of his expressed agenda.

As well, I think it will set a horrible precedent if the Resistance is successful with their soft coup. They don't bother to think about it because they smugly believe a Democrat could never be in the same position as Trump, but this ignores the fact that much of the position he is in is due to their actions. If they are successful, when Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders becomes the next elected president it doesn't take a genius to predict the immediate creation of a new Resistance...on the Right

I also freely admit that I don't want him to go down in flames because I don't think I could stand the self-congratulatory gloating of the Resistance. I might have to become a Taoist monk and live out the rest of my life in a cave. Smile

ossobucotemp
 
  3  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:39 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
What is this Resistance of which you speak? To me, it is a new coinage, though an old word.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:42 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

I'm glad you're happy Finn, but speculating that some opinion writers are going to be a tad extreme or hyperbolic isn't really a stretch.

It happens on both sides and when people on either side point out that it's hyperbole or extreme, they're right to do so, but it's in no way surprising.


A tad extreme? "(Trump must be) fiercely resisted if the nation as we know it is to survive." is just a tad extreme?

There is hyperbole and there is the ridiculous.

He hasn't done it yet, but when Robinson starts warning us that Trump intends to establish martial law and a dictatorship he will have crossed the border between hyperbole and the ridiculous (He already has one foot in the latter realm so it won't be much of a journey for him)

maporsche
 
  7  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:50 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

As well, I think it will set a horrible precedent if the Resistance is successful with their soft coup. They don't bother to think about it because they smugly believe a Democrat could never be in the same position as Trump, but this ignores the fact that much of the position he is in is due to their actions. If they are successful, when Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders becomes the next elected president it doesn't take a genius to predict the immediate creation of a new Resistance...on the Right


I surprised that you don't perceive what happened with Obama as the equivalent of the resistance on the right?

There hasn't even been much to resist yet in the Trump presidency.

The resistance against Obama lasted for 6 years once Republicans seized power. There has already been a democrat in the same position as Trump, in fact in a much worse position were it not for his much greater effectiveness as a leader, at least compared to the leader that we've seen Trump be the last 6 months of his presidency.


Edited to add: Please don't take this post as a 'you did it first' rebuttal. There has been escalation to our current situation from both sides since before I was born. The Obama example was just used the most current example.
maporsche
 
  4  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:52 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

maporsche wrote:

I'm glad you're happy Finn, but speculating that some opinion writers are going to be a tad extreme or hyperbolic isn't really a stretch.

It happens on both sides and when people on either side point out that it's hyperbole or extreme, they're right to do so, but it's in no way surprising.


A tad extreme? "(Trump must be) fiercely resisted if the nation as we know it is to survive." is just a tad extreme?

There is hyperbole and there is the ridiculous.

He hasn't done it yet, but when Robinson starts warning us that Trump intends to establish martial law and a dictatorship he will have crossed the border between hyperbole and the ridiculous (He already has one foot in the latter realm so it won't be much of a journey for him)




I didn't read the author's words; they are immaterial to my point that there are extremists on both sides and it's not surprising or unexpected. They don't deserve any more thought on either side of the aisle.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:37 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
It seems like he thinks it's good executive management to set his subordinates against one another in a managerial dog fight, on the theory that the one most suited to the task will prove victorious....

I really thought that as a successful business man Trump would nail this part of the job, but it's where most of his problems are coming from. There is such a thing as creative destruction and temporary chaos can sometimes bring out the best leadership qualities in people, but rarely can it happen when the chaos is prolonged or manufactured by the boss....

In the absence of any leadership, problems won't be solved and the chaos will not eventually be overcome by order.


As I recall, there were reports of substantial friction between Bannon and Kushner and Trump's response was to tell them both to sit down and work it out---with the implication that if they couldn't, one of them would have to go. Seems reasonable, to me.

The MSM has interpreted Mooch's inclusion of Priebus' name in his tweet about leaking as a "bombshell" revelation of dysfunction, etc.

Tony now says that he mentioned Priebus only because they share a common goal, and are both empowered to help achieve it. This may be disingenuous (and probably is) but at least it's an attempt to present a unified face to the public.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:41 pm
@layman,
It seems from these linked articles that McCain threw the first punch (but I admit I scanned them and didn't read them closely). Of course this doesn't have any bearing on how McCain reacted to Trump's comments about his service.

McCain is the sort of person who gets in a dirty knock down fight but will never admit that he did anything to precipitate, expand or prolong it. Neither will ever admit that any punch he ever threw in the fight was below the belt. He of course is a Lion of the Senate (like his friend and esteemed colleague Teddy Kennedy) and the Keystone of Congressional Integrity. He's milked his Maverick persona for all it is worth.

Apparently he also has amnesia about the Keating Five, or his response to his involvement in the scandal has been much like that of a former alcoholic.

Now I don't want to criticize McCain too harshly. I believe that while he is not quite the personification of integrity he seems to think he is, he is, overall, an honorable man who has served his country well both in the military and in politics. For a great many years I have agreed with most of his positions and I happily voted for him in 2008. I think that he probably would have made a very good president, and I wish him all the best with his current dire medical situation.

Having said this, he has voluntarily put himself in the public arena of politics and so is hardly immune from criticism regardless of his past heroics, his overall positive performance in Congress and his current unfortunate condition.

Some people might find his tenacity in terms of exacting revenge admirable. It seems like Trump would. However I can't condone his use of his Senate vote to do so, nor his penchant for harsh criticism of his Republican colleagues in the advancement of his reputation as a Maverick and a cozy relationship with the MSM. (It's somewhat ironic, but I suspect that if he had won in 2008 he would have experienced his own problems with Congress as a result of the bad blood he created with some members of both the House and Senate)

Trump may have tried to make peace with McCain and, at the time, he may have been quite sincere, but he strikes me as the sort of person who can't fully appreciate the effect of some of the insults he launches, and if he makes a peaceful overture doesn't understand why his target can't put the insult behind them. He's also, to say the least, mercurial, and quite capable of going off on someone with whom he has made peace if he feels they might have violated the truce. In short, he's trigger happy with insults.

Trump supporters like that Trump is a "fighter" and I do too in the sense that he clearly is not willing to put up with MSM **** the way Bush and so many Republicans (including McCain) have been. There's a reason Newt Gingrich won the SC Primary in 2012 and jumped up in the standings after he took off on the MSM during the debate that preceded the vote. Despite this lesson too many Republicans continued to fear pissing off a group of biased partisans who would never give them a fair shake regardless of how they might try to curry favor, and it's always infuriated the rank and file of the GOP. He's also not willing to be constrained by the hypocritical and artificial bindings of political correctness which was another big plus for the rank & file beyond even his hardcore base. However not everyone, including me, appreciates the delight he seems to take in fighting with anyone and everyone over the most minor of affronts. Whether because it looks like the actions of a bully or that it's so petty and unnecessary. It may have served him well in business but it's not helping him in politics. It's a classic case of a virtue that can morph into a vice if taken to extremes.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:44 pm
@ossobucotemp,
ossobucotemp wrote:

What is this Resistance of which you speak? To me, it is a new coinage, though an old word.


I'm very surprised by this response.

Google "The Resistance" and you'll find a great number of links to explanations
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -3  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:52 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
However not everyone, including me, appreciates the delight he seems to take in fighting with anyone and everyone over the most minor of affronts. Whether because it looks like the actions of a bully or that it's so petty and unnecessary. It may have served him well in business but it's not helping him in politics. It's a classic case of a virtue that can morph into a vice if taken to extremes.


Well, yeah, I agree completely, but, then again, sometimes ya just gotta take the good with the bad. Ya gotta remember that he was schooled by the notorious Roy Cohn, who was never "moderate" in anything he did.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  9  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 12:56 pm
And now a brief moment for fond fantasy...
https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20431387_10213986949174086_8610506120439368855_n.jpg?oh=969a71ceb6231b120cd46ffc6b38965f&oe=5A02BB1D
layman
 
  -3  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 01:00 pm
@snood,
Ya got the wrong clan there, eh, Snooty? It should be the Clintons. And, yes, that would include Chelsea, who herself ripped off hundreds of thousands from the Clinton Foundation.
Debra Law
 
  4  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 01:00 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Depends on who you ask. Despicable May has tried to hitch herself to his wagon.



Looks like Trump is hosting a new "reality show": The Apprentice, White House Edition .... Money, Money, Money ....
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  5  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 01:05 pm
@layman,
Won't take long, I suppose.

I've watched Trump's speech a couple of minutes ago (while channel hopping, not by purpose!)...
http://i.imgur.com/BJheDyg.jpg
... and he said, laws until now only protected the criminals and he will change that now. (Obamacare is dead, he said as well.)

0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 01:15 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:


There hasn't even been much to resist yet in the Trump presidency.

Which makes The Resistance all the more notable and noxious.

The resistance against Obama lasted for 6 years once Republicans seized power. There has already been a democrat in the same position as Trump, in fact in a much worse position were it not for his much greater effectiveness as a leader, at least compared to the leader that we've seen Trump be the last 6 months of his presidency.

The resistance experienced by Obama was largely limited to Republicans in Congress and Right-Wing Talk Radio, and certain Opinion Talking Heads on FOX.Eventually the Tea Party movement joined in. The Resistance is a named movement and includes the Democrats in Congress, virtually the entire Mainstream News Media, the Entertainment Industry, Academia, and mobs of angry pop-up protesters and anarchists and they all came together crying Resistance! the day after he was elected.

There were no "serious" politicians or journalists talking about the various ways to depose President Obama, of which impeachment is only one. There weren't calls for Congressional investigations and the appointment of a special prosecutor before he took office and CNN and Buzzfeed weren't publishing the salacious details of an entirely bogus product of opposition research.

There weren't marches and demonstrations both peaceful and violent before he took office on the day of and the day after he was inaugurated.

There were no Supreme Court Justices blatantly and in public harshly criticizing Obama.

There was no international resistance to Obama, quite the opposite.

Obama had McConnell announcing that it was his goal to see that Obama was a one term president. I can understand why his supporters found that irritating but McConnell only voiced what every leader of the opposition party believes. It may have happened but I don't recall McConnell or Boehner appearing at rallies and whipping up the crowds with rhetoric about resistance to every and all policies of the new administration.


Do you think for one minute that The Resistance movement is going anywhere while Trump remains in office? And to describe as "factual" that Obama faced worse resistance than Trump is simply ludicrous.

The Resistance may think that their resistance is a worthy and necessary effort to save the nation by ridding it of a unfit and degenerate president but to suggest that it is no different than what Obama faced or somehow even less, is just absurd, and frankly I have a very hard time believing you kept a straight face as you typed those words.


Edited to add: Please don't take this post as a 'you did it first' rebuttal. There has been escalation to our current situation from both sides since before I was born. The Obama example was just used the most current example.

I won't, however if you think Obama faced resistance just wait and see what is in store for the next Dem president if Trump is unfairly ousted. Of course it still won't be able to rise to the level of the Resistance because it will be missing so many key components: MSM, Entertainment Industry and Academia to name three.
layman
 
  -2  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 01:29 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
I won't, however if you think Obama faced resistance just wait and see what is in store for the next Dem president if Trump is unfairly ousted. Of course it still won't be able to rise to the level of the Resistance because it will be missing so many key components: MSM, Entertainment Industry and Academia to name three.

Yeah, Finn, if that happens the next round will include some of the "components" of the leftist resistance which have heretofore been absent on the right, to wit: Groups such as "antifa" who openly advocate and practice gratuitious violence in order to remove Trump "by any means possible."

The "para-military" groups on the right will stop talking **** and start doing ****.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  4  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 01:35 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Next week sometime, Trump should stage a huge rally with thousands of nurses and doctors and people in wheelchairs all arrayed outside a huge hospital which has an enormous sign draped across stating "Mission Accomplished". You know, just to remind American citizens why they have good reason to vote Republican.


Perhaps. But when I try to envision that rally, the first thing that comes to mind is the "euthanasia day" hospital scene from Death Race 2000:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGhu5Zl5ry8

And then I think about the clip from "Fox & Friends" when the hosts were crying because Democrats were "celebrating" the defeat of the bill to repeal the Affordable Care Act. Cynical host Steve Doocy said: "Congratulations, the healthy people are paying for the sick people." See Huffington Post

Fox & Friends were unhappy because it's a terrible thing to have a fund called "insurance" in the event a person is old or sick and needs healthcare. Fox & Friends were hoping for their own brand of "euthanasia day" 2017 instead. But that damn McCain with the brain tumor didn't drive his car where they wanted him to drive. So much disappointment to go around.



snood
 
  6  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 02:24 pm
Finn wrote:
Quote:
What had McCain done of which Trump became aware, that led to the vicious counter-punch.


Ah, yes. The ‘Trump’s a counter-puncher’ fallacy. It’s one of the more pitiful defenses raised to defend his behaviors. Way back when Trump reveled in floating sophomoric, demeaning nick-names for all his primary opponents, it became obvious to everyone that insults are just part of The Donald’s shtick. Those that were determined to like him no matter what, came up with a dozen ways to excuse it – ‘he’s only hitting back, never starting it’… ‘it’s because of his New York background’…’that’s what we like – he’s a fighter’…etc. The rest of us just saw it for what it was – the way a bullying entitled sociopath with no ideas communicates with other people.

Finn wrote:
Quote:
McCain's "No" vote was his revenge strike: No more and no less.


I think much of McCain’s time was spent during Obama’s terms just trying to retaliate for the loss he suffered at his hands. And he may not have earned his “maverick” moniker; he has seemed to fluctuate between sound-byte spewing careerist and someone who genuinely thinks for himself. I haven’t seen him the same way since he inflicted Sarah Palin on this country. You may be right – his vote might have been “no more and no less” than revenge. But McCain is dying, and the part of him that will act on conscience despite resistance is still in there. I think the chances are that McCain saw this “skinny repeal” vote as a simple way to do the right thing – I think he may have considered the tens of millions who would lose their healthcare.

Finn wrote:
Quote:
This sort of crap can be entertaining until you realize that these people weren't elected to indulge themselves in a modern version of Game of Thrones, and regardless of what one thinks about the legislation McCain was voting on, neither he nor any of his colleagues should be using their votes to settle personal scores.


Interesting you don’t view Trump’s motives and efforts in the same light. The argument could easily be made that the lion's share of thin-skinned Don’s incentive for pursuing the presidency was retaliation for being publicly humiliated at the White House Correspondents Dinner by Obama and Seth Meyers. An entire disgraceful garbage fire of a presidency started as payback for public embarrassment. Seems feasible to me.
layman
 
  -2  
Fri 28 Jul, 2017 02:49 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
What had McCain done of which Trump became aware, that led to the vicious counter-punch.


I don't see this as a "vicious counter-punch," really. His point, while obviously intended to piss off McCain, had some semi-valid merit, I suppose. McCain himself has seemed to make the same point.

Most people prefer success to failure. If getting caught means failure and not getting caught implies success, then, obviously, not getting captured is preferable.

When Trump said he was "only a hero because he was captured," I think he was pointing that much of the narrative about McCain's heroics was centered around the fact that he was tortured by the VC.

Of course, Trump later rejected the MSN spin that Trump was saying that a captured serviceman could not be a "hero."
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.45 seconds on 05/05/2024 at 11:16:45