192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
Debra Law
 
  3  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 05:24 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Debra Law wrote:


It's the ideology that counts. For instance, that is why it is repugnant for present day Republicans to take credit for the emancipation of slaves because Abe Lincoln was a Republican. I understand that modern day conservatives often take credit for the past achievements of progressives. But please, give me an example from our country's ongoing "culture wars" where conservatives were the ones who stepped forward to champion the cause of the oppressed.


I agree with your opening statement about ideology, but dispute your conclusion about championing the oppressed. Republicans have always been for individual liberty and freedom of action, . . .


Really? If Republicans support individual liberty and freedom of action, then why do they support and pass draconian laws designed to prohibit and thwart women from controlling their own procreative destinies? why did they support and pass laws designed to prohibit or thwart people from marrying the person of their choice? why do they support and pass laws designed to exempt people from complying with generally applicable laws? why do they support and pass laws designed to suppress the votes of minority voters?


Quote:
. . . while modern Democrats , seeing themselves as champions of the oppressed, busily create authoritarian structures to give themselves more power and control of public money, ostensibly on behalf of chosen oppressed people, whom they treated loke pawns in their overly complex plans - all of which act to expand their personal and political power. Whether this is forethought and deliberate or merely a pleasant byproduct of sappy thinking is largely immaterial. Liberal politicians and bureaucrats are always among the chief beneficiaries of such programs.


You've said a mouthful, but you have provided any examples. Identify the "authoritarian structures" allegedly created by Democrats. And, if these structures, which you do not identify, serve the personal and political power of Democrats, they why haven't the Republicans dismantled those structures when they have been in power?

Quote:
The plantations Democrats propose and operate today are merely contemporary models for the benign elements of the plantations of the 18th and early 19th centruies. In fact they have done real harm, rewarding self-destructive behavior on the part of those they are "helping", encouraging the rise of the worst, most exploitive leaders from within those groups, all while ignoring, and sometiomes hindering, constructive individual behavior for self-improvement on the part of theose they are "helping".



It appears that the above is a racist rant against people of color. And your reference to "benign elements" of plantations owned and operated by slaveholders is offensive. What was benign? Instead of dancing around with words laced with innuendo, you should state your grievances in clear and unmistakable language.

0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 05:53 am
@tony5732,
Quote:
If a person pays for a business, then they should be given the same liberties on how they run that businesses.

Yes. No Gays or Muslims or Jews Allowed (religious affiliation is a choice).
Debra Law
 
  4  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 06:07 am
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:

Yep the racists moved to the party who passed the Civil Rights laws, that makes total sense. How do you explain the Dems being the party who controlled the south from the time of ReConstruction until the first GOP governor was elected on the mid 1990's?


You have that backwards, Baldimo. The racists left the Democratic Party (i.e., the party that aligned itself with the civil rights movement under Kennedy's leadership) and they migrated to the Republican Party, which began flourishing in the south when Reagan courted multiple factions under the "Southern Strategy" and "big tent" mantra.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 06:44 am
Josh is making an argument/thesis here on the presses' (understandable) failure to find or ferret out much that is intentionally kept secret. That's particularly relevant where an administration is corrupt or extremist. Not a simple problem, of course. He gives this example:
Quote:
Now we have another example. We learned overnight that Trump's designated National Security Advisor Michael Flynn met secretly in Trump Tower with the chief of the Austrian Freedom Party. The Austrian Freedom Party is not just any foreign political party or even any right-wing populist party. The Freedom Party was founded in 1956 by former Nazis, though that lineage can be slightly misleading. It is not and was never simply a refounding of the Austrian Nazi party. Still, it is a far right nationalist party, made up in its early years disproportionately of former Nazis which for many of these early years was shunned in national politics but also provided a home for people who were shunned by or unwilling to join the country's big two political parties. In more recent years it has had surges of popular support as a far-right anti-immigrant party.

The party made news yesterday for a new pact it has signed with Vladimir Putin's United Russia party but also for the meeting with Flynn. What's critical though is that both were only revealed in a Facebook post (first reported by the Times) by party leader Heinz-Christian Strache. Before he posted the news on Facebook, we didn't know this meeting had happened.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-on-going-press-failure

0 Replies
 
tony5732
 
  2  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 06:47 am
@blatham,
It sure is. That's a REALLY good point. I never thought of it like that.

I DO put religion in a different category than sexual preference, but your right. That is walking a very fine line.
blatham
 
  3  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 06:57 am
@tony5732,
Quote:
I DO put religion in a different category than sexual preference,

It's proper to consider religion as in a different category because it is a social or group phenomenon of great consequence in human affairs.

But where these two different phenomena (sexual identity/preference and faith groups) are similar or identical re human rights is that either can be (and are) susceptible to prejudice and thus the restriction of their rights.
0 Replies
 
tony5732
 
  0  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 07:01 am
@blatham,
OK, so what if I wanted a Muslim wedding planner to plan my Christian wedding, with an open bar, a preacher, maybe some ham and bacon, and while getting married to my gay lover. Would they be legally required to do so??
blatham
 
  3  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 07:04 am
I want to focus on another aspect of Josh's post above:
Quote:
In the most recent episode of my podcast, I talked with Josh Green about Donald Trump's and Steve Bannon's plan to bust apart the EU by first striking a free trade agreement with the UK and then trying to break up the EU by striking individual bilateral trade agreements with Germany, France, Italy, etc.

Whether or not that is really plausible, whether that is something a Trump administration could really pull off, the goal is wild and extremely newsworthy. Yet, there's virtually no discussion of it.

I haven't listened to that podcast yet (I'll do that in a bit and probably post a bit more on this) but a few days ago, I did note what Bannon/Breitbart are up to re expanding their operation into at least two European nations (France, Germany) with the goal of supporting far right parties there. WTF?

The first thing we can note about this is that these operations won't be news-gathering in intent nor in operation. They will be political advocacy operations. The game will be propaganda.

This is very important.
giujohn
 
  -2  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 07:09 am
@Blickers,
Oh yeah...I can see where that makes him a mother ******* MONSTER...Death penalty status at least.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  3  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 07:26 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

I want to focus on another aspect of Josh's post above:
Quote:
In the most recent episode of my podcast, I talked with Josh Green about Donald Trump's and Steve Bannon's plan to bust apart the EU by first striking a free trade agreement with the UK and then trying to break up the EU by striking individual bilateral trade agreements with Germany, France, Italy, etc.

Whether or not that is really plausible, whether that is something a Trump administration could really pull off, the goal is wild and extremely newsworthy. Yet, there's virtually no discussion of it.

I haven't listened to that podcast yet (I'll do that in a bit and probably post a bit more on this) but a few days ago, I did note what Bannon/Breitbart are up to re expanding their operation into at least two European nations (France, Germany) with the goal of supporting far right parties there. WTF?

The first thing we can note about this is that these operations won't be news-gathering in intent nor in operation. They will be political advocacy operations. The game will be propaganda.

This is very important.


The Supreme Leader and his inner circle, including his minister of propaganda, are hard at work on his New Order.

Quote:
Marie Brenner's 1990 profile of Donald Trump for Vanity Fair captured the real estate mogul in turmoil, as he struggled to hold onto his empire amid a nasty divorce fight. It's a juicy piece, but one anecdote in particular stands out: that Trump owned a copy of Adolf Hitler's speeches and allegedly read them for inspiration:

Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler's collected speeches, My New Order, which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed. Kennedy now guards a copy of My New Order in a closet at his office, as if it were a grenade. Hitler's speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist.


"Wow," you're thinking. "But did Trump also respond to this allegation in a shady and kind of revealing way?"

Yes:

"Did your cousin John give you the Hitler speeches?" I asked Trump.

Trump hesitated. "Who told you that?"

"I don't remember," I said.

"Actually, it was my friend Marty Davis from Paramount who gave me a copy of Mein Kampf, and he's a Jew." ("I did give him a book about Hitler," Marty Davis said. "But it was My New Order, Hitler's speeches, not Mein Kampf. I thought he would find it interesting. I am his friend, but I'm not Jewish.")

Later, Trump returned to this subject. "If I had these speeches, and I am not saying that I do, I would never read them."



http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/09/trump-files-donalds-big-book-hitler-speeches
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 07:28 am
@tony5732,
Someone with a better understanding of the law re religious exemptions can correct me if I have this wrong.

First, let's note that you've introduced the category error here of placing two religious groups/values in contest whereas the cases you allude to have in contest a commercial enterprise (which holds religious views) with a non-religious party - gay persons.

In the example you bring up, I think that (and I may be wrong) religious exemptions in existing civil rights law would grant the Muslim operation leeway to refuse.

@Deborah - what's your understanding of this?
tony5732
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 07:32 am
@Debra Law,
So, your argument isn't Democrats VS Republicans, it's more progressive VS conservative.

You need both.

Progressive and conservative (at least what it seems like to me) is kind of a female version and a male version of an idea. The progressive says "this sucks, we need to change, let's try this", while the conservative says "hold on, the new idea sucks, it should stay the same". The progressive will point out everything wrong with an old idea and demand it be changed, while the conservative will point out everything wrong with the new idea and demand it be stopped. While we will always have the necessity for change and evolution, we still can't do it without understanding and implementing past ideas. The mix of the two, that system of checks and balances, is what makes the better idea.

Take pants for example. People have changed pants in about a million different ways, from zippers to buttons to floods to denim. They have been changed over and over because of fashion, function, etc. But, they are still pants. For hundreds of years, they have always been pants. Pants were as good of an idea as the evolution of pants.

The same idea as the pants is incorporated into politics and ideas.
Below viewing threshold (view)
giujohn
 
  -1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 07:43 am
@Frugal1,
Hell yeah!
0 Replies
 
Frugal1
 
  -3  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 07:46 am
@tony5732,
Quote:
OK, so what if I wanted a Muslim wedding planner to plan my Christian wedding, with an open bar, a preacher, maybe some ham and bacon, and while getting married to my gay lover. Would they be legally required to do so??


Some activist group needs to test this
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 07:48 am
Totally off topic but who cares

Here's a group of people talking about meeting Bill Murray in the wild
http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-club-for-people-who-have-spotted-bill-murray-in-the-wild
0 Replies
 
tony5732
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 07:50 am
@blatham,
Well, fine take everything out except the homosexual part. Can I ask a Muslim wedding planner to plan my gay wedding, or a Muslim band to play at my gay wedding, or a muslim photographer to take pictures at my gay wedding? We put Christians on blast for this type of behavior, can we hold the Muslim religious types to the same accountability?
Debra Law
 
  3  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 07:50 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Someone with a better understanding of the law re religious exemptions can correct me if I have this wrong.

First, let's note that you've introduced the category error here of placing two religious groups/values in contest whereas the cases you allude to have in contest a commercial enterprise (which holds religious views) with a non-religious party - gay persons.

In the example you bring up, I think that (and I may be wrong) religious exemptions in existing civil rights law would grant the Muslim operation leeway to refuse.

@Deborah - what's your understanding of this?


Respectfully Blatham, I placed Tony on ignore. Among other things, he makes false and fallacious statements, he doesn't carry his own water, and he treats other posters like dogs demanding they fetch for him. I'm not fetching. If he has a genuine curiosity or thirst for knowledge, he should educate himself.
tony5732
 
  -1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 07:51 am
@Frugal1,
I agree, I would love to see the outcome.
0 Replies
 
tony5732
 
  -2  
Wed 21 Dec, 2016 07:53 am
@Debra Law,
Respectfully Debby law, you are a coward and a bigot.
 

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