192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
blatham
 
  4  
Sat 27 May, 2017 09:10 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
I consider WH staff to be government employees.
Sure, but then one has to drop any notion of "deep state" (as you've defined the term) here. These are people brought in by Pence or Preibus or Kurshner or Sessions or Bannon or other cabinet appointees or Trump himself. There's a level of organization incompetence and chaos here which, as is broadly acknowledged, has no precedent. That's very important.

Quote:
Yes, I did miss comments from Limbaugh and Ingraham. I'd point out though that neither are GOP politicians nor leaders of the conservative movement.
Also Fox news, Daily Caller, Brent Bozell, Alex Jones (of course), NewsBusters and more. So. here you would like to differentiate right wing politicians and movement leaders from right wing media, the latter implicitly being held as less dependable or rabble rousers. But it is that right wing media which (as you acknowledge re Limbaugh) has great influence on what right wing voters think and do. Thus it is hardly irrelevant to our modern situation. And it is why so many twitter posts and other statements by right wing voters were of the "It's about time!" or "They deserve it" variety.

I'm not sure who you mean by movement "leaders". Perhaps you could identify some.

As regards politicians, Trump said nothing about the assault only congratulating the winner. No criticism.
Gohmert - "We didn't have a course on bodyslamming when I went to school. I missed that course. I'm sorry I missed it"
Charlie Dent, asked if Gianforte would be welcomed by Republicans in Congress, "Yes, of course"
Duncan Hunter - "It's not appropriate behavior. Unless the reporter deserved it"
Trent Franks - “The left has precipitated this tense confrontational approach throughout the country in recent months,”
(that's a five minute search)

Quote:
Gianforte's behavior was inexcusable, in my mind,
Good for you. But of course there's just no question about it. That it is being so broadly excused on the right is a very bad sign.

Quote:
assertions that the incident is evidence that a) Donald Trump has corrupted American society, the GOP or the conservative movement or b) The conservative movement is corrupted are entirely overblown and people like Charen (who I often agree with) and Gershon (who I rarely agree with) are using it for the convenience of their obvious distaste for Trump.
You seem to suggest that this "distaste" is unfounded or irrational. It's not, which is why it is so widespread and why his polls are so bad and only worsening. But I suspect only time will get you to that conclusion.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Sat 27 May, 2017 09:31 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Quote:
Amazing, isn't it?
Yes. But I'm more frightened by it than amazed. It's a level of tribal loyalty that is taking the US to very bad places.


The level of ideology based tribalism in America is alarming and a cause or effect of a very deep political divide that I don't see being bridged anytime soon. Of course it exists on both sides of the divide, and I would be truly amazed if you didn't acknowledge it to be so.

It also exists elsewhere in a world that is hardly the model of a Coca Cola commercial where everyone is singing together in harmony. In many places it is literally competing tribes and in others its religion based, but it's always an expression of a belief that the other tribe is a dangerous enemy, that their beliefs and actions are ruining life for the members of their tribe and can't possibly have any legitimate reason for believing or acting as they do.

I saw a particularly ugly incident of it at a dinner in London this week. A number of the people I regularly meet with voted Leave on Brexit and frankly it surprised me in some cases because the well educated, young, upwardly mobile Brit who works in The City and the financial sector was supposed to be the prime example of those who would vote Remain. In each case their vote was based on a desire to see their country break free of the rules and regulations imposed by faceless technocrats in Brussels. No one has ever explained that their vote was, to any extent, based on immigration, but I recognize that's not necessarily something they would want to share, particularly since the Remain side forcefully made the case that a vote to leave was a sure sign if racism and xenophobia. However when you've had several pints at a pub, people's guards sometime fall down a bit, and still no one expressed anti-immigration motivations for their vote.

During dinner, the subject of Brexit came up in the context of the possibility that some of the folks working in the financial sector might be required to move to continental Europe if the UK could not strike a deal with the EU before officially leaving. One fellow with whom I had never discussed the topic previously expressed that he was heartbroken over the UK leaving Europe. I understand the sentiments of those who wished to Remain and I certainly considered his to be sincere, but when he started to very harshly criticize Brits who voted to Leave, I felt the urge to defend colleagues who I knew voted thus but were hesitant to say anything because the fellow was one of their clients. I explained that while I didn't have a dog in the fight, I could well understand the motivation of Brits who voted to leave based on the issue of sovereignty, and that I hoped he wasn't saying that half of the population of his nation were fearful racist swine. It may have been the number of glasses of wine he consumed but he wasn't prepared to cut Leavers any slack and actually doubled down on his expressions of contempt. At one point one of the most junior members of the group said "Well, I voted to leave," and the fellow in question responded, without a trace of humor, "Well, you're a ******* idiot!" Immediately after this explosive insult, the conversation was awkwardly redirected to the football matches that were underway.

This, I think, was a good example of the political tribalism that exists throughout the world. As I said, I get why this fellow wanted the UK to remain and I don't think his reasons revealed any lack of patriotism or any other personal flaw that might be attributed to Remain voters, and yet he, very obviously, wasn't willing to credit the other tribe with having equally rational and defensible reasons for voting to leave. He felt Brexit to be a disaster for the UK (which it may or may not be), but his disappointment in the vote seemed to be less about financial considerations than history and culture. He kept harping on his perceived fact that the EU was created to keep Germany and France in check and from starting anymore world wars, and that that purpose was not obsolete. That this would likely be perceived by any French or German citizens that might have been listening to be offensive, didn't seem to register with him. In the end he had been deprived of something he greatly valued and it was the other tribe of ******* idiots who because of their ignorance and hatred had stolen it from him.

Obviously the same dynamic is at work in American society. Members of the Liberal/Democrat tribe despise the members of the Conservative/Republican tribe who deprived them of a president with a progressive agenda and gave them the monster Trump. In turn members of the latter tribe despise members of the former for depriving them of certain traditional values and institutions. It is no longer enough to assume that people with whom you disagree are simply wrong, now they are members of a tribe, the whole of which are ******* idiots and evil to boot.

The history of tribalism is not one of harmonious relations. For ages, tribes have competed for limited resources and that competition has led to conflict more than cooperation. As with any very serious conflict our instincts seem to be to view the opposition as the enemy and the enemy as, in some way, inferior to us, and not deserving of equal consideration as humans. It is a very dangerous dynamic, but I see it strengthening, not dissipating.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Sat 27 May, 2017 09:33 am
@blatham,
It is. There are a lot of ugly people in the world.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  -1  
Sat 27 May, 2017 09:49 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
If mine was well said yours was eloquent.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Sat 27 May, 2017 10:21 am
@blatham,
There are multiple sources of the leaks we have been seeing, and because some come from the White House doesn't at all mean that the "notion" of deep state operatives is invalid.

When you make an argument that there is evidence of bad deeds and irresponsible rhetoric on both sided of the divide, you'll get no disagreement from me.

When you make an argument that the core of one side is corrupt while the other is a shining example of altruism (with one or two examples of regrettable excess prompted by the corruption of their opponents) you will.

I'm not of a mood at present to think about similar incidents where there was a lack of condemnation from the left, but at some point in the future, I feel certain that there will be. If you find that as troubling as this one, I will be surprised, but pleasantly so.

I don't think anyone's distaste for Trump is unfounded or irrational. I think fear and loathing for him is.
georgeob1
 
  -2  
Sat 27 May, 2017 10:44 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
There's very little that is new or original beyond the specific details in the divide of attitudes you encountered during your London visit. They are a common element of human behavior during unsettled times, and history is replete with it.

The extended rivalries of Guelfs and Ghibellines in the 13th and 14th centuries in Northern Italy ( regarding the political rivalries of Popes and Emperors) ; the whites and reds in the Wars of the Roses in 15th century England (involving the political rivalries of the contending houses of York and Lancaster) come immediately to mind. The same thing could be observed during the extended clashes among the Triumvirs (Caesar, Pompey & Crassus) in the transition of Rome from Republic to Empire.

Analogous lasting divides occurred in the United States over slavery during and after the Civil War; in Russia following the 1917 Revolution; in France after the revolution and in the 19th century Habsburg Empire. Each divided communities and even families along the contending political lines. In each he various protagonists exhibited strong emotions that seem odd to detached observers, and the struggles all involved all the same prejudgment of the motives of the opposition and projected conspiracy theories that we see so evident in Blatham's fatuous and tedious theorizing about "movement conservatism" in the United States. The only remarkable feature of it is that he somehow appears to think it original and insightful on his part . In fact it is simply the stuff of human conflict over shared issues.
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Sat 27 May, 2017 11:32 am
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/05/27/hillary-clinton-sad-sore-loser-speech-shows-america-dodged-bullet/
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Sat 27 May, 2017 11:36 am
Try to imagine a world in which HDK (Hildabeast Dindu KKKlintler) was president of the US.....

https://sites.psu.edu/siowfa16/files/2016/09/nightmare2-2gftxrn.jpg
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Sat 27 May, 2017 11:58 am
http://dailycaller.com/2017/05/26/de-blasio-staffer-rising-democrat-caught-with-child-porn/
0 Replies
 
camlok
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2017 12:14 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:
Try to imagine a world in which HDK (Hildabeast Dindu KKKlintler) was president of the US.....


gungasnake caught with conservative child porn.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Sat 27 May, 2017 01:16 pm
@InfraBlue,
Response moderated: Personal attack. See more info.
layman
 
  -1  
Sat 27 May, 2017 01:25 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Unless the facts of the particular incident are very much different from what I've heard or read, Gianforte's behavior was inexcusable


What have you actually read, Finn? Have you read my posts addressing his behavior and the witness testimony. He neither "punched" nor "choked" the perv, as is now presented as "the truth," by cheese-eaters and the MSM.

Jacobs said he "body slammed' and was "pretty sure" (evidently not really positive about it) that Gianforte was "on top of me, but only for a second." He has never claimed that he was choked or punched, and he, out of all the "witnesses" in the world, would be in the best position to know. Gianforte just keep telling him to "get the hell out" of his private office, which he had busted into without asking for, or receiving, permission.

Have you read the post I made on the topic, addressed primarily to the issue of pre-judgment based on mere allegations?

Personally, I find it much more disturbing that candyasses want to pretend that you are breaking the law if you resist the illegal violation of your rights with reasonable force.


layman
 
  -1  
Sat 27 May, 2017 01:58 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Personally, I find it much more disturbing that candyasses want to pretend that you are breaking the law if you resist the illegal violation of your rights with reasonable force.


In this country to are permitted to KILL even a cop, if that's what it takes to terminate the violation of your rights. That's a natural conclusion to be drawn if you actually think constitution rights are valuable, and can legitimately be defended:

Quote:
“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529.

“These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).


Many more similar court holdings here: http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm

As regards trespass:

Quote:
You are generally permitted to use minimal force to remove a trespasser from your property (someone on your property who has no lawful claim to it, whom you have asked to leave and who has refused), but you may not cause him serious harm unless he is violent, in which case the usual AOJP rules apply


https://useofforce.us/4details/

I'm aware that there are millions of cheese-eaters who would instinctively "object" to the right to resist an unlawful arrest or remove a trespasser from your property.

I would hope that you're not one of them, Finn.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Sat 27 May, 2017 02:32 pm
Finn, as I recall, you said that you "doubted" that the law would permit the use of force to remove a trespasser. Here is a typical state (Illinois in this case) statute addressing the topic:

Quote:
Sec. 7-3. Use of force in defense of other property.

(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with either real property (other than a dwelling) or personal property.

(b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of "aggressor" set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article.


http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?ActID=1876&ChapterID=53&SeqStart=8200000&SeqEnd=9700000

This section pertains to property "other than a dwelling" (such as a private office). The statute pertaining to dwellings is even more "liberal" (if you want to call it that) in affording citizens the right to use deadly force.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2017 02:45 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

There's very little that is new or original beyond the specific details in the divide of attitudes you encountered during your London visit. They are a common element of human behavior during unsettled times, and history is replete with it.

The extended rivalries of Guelfs and Ghibellines in the 13th and 14th centuries in Northern Italy ( regarding the political rivalries of Popes and Emperors) ; the whites and reds in the Wars of the Roses in 15th century England (involving the political rivalries of the contending houses of York and Lancaster) come immediately to mind. The same thing could be observed during the extended clashes among the Triumvirs (Caesar, Pompey & Crassus) in the transition of Rome from Republic to Empire.

Analogous lasting divides occurred in the United States over slavery during and after the Civil War; in Russia following the 1917 Revolution; in France after the revolution and in the 19th century Habsburg Empire. Each divided communities and even families along the contending political lines. In each he various protagonists exhibited strong emotions that seem odd to detached observers, and the struggles all involved all the same prejudgment of the motives of the opposition and projected conspiracy theories that we see so evident in Blatham's fatuous and tedious theorizing about "movement conservatism" in the United States. The only remarkable feature of it is that he somehow appears to think it original and insightful on his part . In fact it is simply the stuff of human conflict over shared issues.


Of course you're right that it's been a constant aspect of human nature over thousands of years, but it seems worse than any other time in my life and I find it depressing. It's not comforting to realize that its most intense periods usually ended in armed conflicts.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2017 02:48 pm
@layman,
Yes I did read what you wrote, and I'm not discounting it, I simply find his resorting to physical force (even in the circumstances you've described) as objectionable.

I'm sure there was another way to deal with the problem.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2017 02:50 pm
@layman,
I don't think the reporter will be considered to have trespassed, but we'll see.

layman
 
  -1  
Sat 27 May, 2017 03:08 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I simply find his resorting to physical force (even in the circumstances you've described) as objectionable. I'm sure there was another way to deal with the problem.


Well, OK, Finn, that's what you said before, but you really didn't address my reply at the time.

My point was (and is) this: What any given person may find "objectionable" is not the criterion for what is legal. And thank God for that.

Sure, "other ways" of handling the situation may have been "better." But the law does not require one to first ponder upon the "best way" to deal with a given situation. You have the right to forcibly eject a trespasser, even if you (or others) don't think it's the "best way."

The premise that one is free to replace duly enacted law with his personal preferences is one that cheese-eating "activist" judges routinely employ to subvert the law of the land.

I see THAT as a problem. Maybe you don't.
camlok
 
  0  
Sat 27 May, 2017 03:21 pm
@layman,
Quote:
You have the right to forcibly eject a trespasser,


You are trying to squeeze 10 gallons of **** into the 5 gallon bucket with you still in there.

A member of the press, reporting on this fellow's election race is a trespasser? Sounds like this is your man for Congress.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Sat 27 May, 2017 03:33 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grD_IINiH9c

 

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