Kerry wiped the floor with Bush

As soon as I read 1970 it hit me...JW, you're quoting stuff from 35 years ago?????

Find me a quote from George Bush 35 years ago...

Well, ehem, ... that would be really ... I mean, no need to hurt so hard, panzade!

Panzade - I replied earlier (I guess you missed it) in this thread with Kerry's quote from long ago. I also had two other points using his words more recently that lead me to my opinion.

Can we not just agree to disagree on what Mr. Kerry would do if he were to be elected?

I know you are convinced he would build a strong alliance. If you think France and Germany will be included in that alliance, you would most likely be wrong.

This all, of course, is just my opinion.

JW, I enjoy debating you as you are earnest in your beliefs and you don't take yourself so seriously...as I don't. I just don't see what is germane about a quote Kerry made in 1970. And I honestly think you're confusing UN peace keeping missions with the sovereignty of our armed forces. I don't see where Kerry wants to subjugate our capability to invade a country to the UN.
In any case, I don't know what exactly Kerry would do...there's still another act before the fat lady sings.

We really don't know what Germany and France will do with a new president. Speculation is just that; speculation.

We probably won't get the chance to find out, either.

Kick, That may also be true; it's possible that Bush gets four more years in the wh.

IMO, the French and the Germans will do what is in their national interests no matter who is in the WH.

Having said that though, if the President would reward them with some sort of benefits at our expense, they would certainly deem that in their national interest I would think.

THIS is interesting, though.

Only for those, who didn't read the 'International News' earlier.

That's one of the faults I find with Kerry; too many promises that he can't deliver once he's the pres. The leaders of both France and Germany know too well that getting involved in Iraq will be the end of their career in politics. No better or worse than our current run of generals afraid to make any recommendations to this administration for fear of their own careers.

"But they have no intention of putting troops on the ground to help the war effort."

If you were a European leader would you send troops to Iraq , now, under the leadership of dubya? I think not!...BUT! I believe under the UN it would be a different matter. I believe if Bush had worked with the UN on Iraq...the French and Germans would possibly have joined in.

Thanks JW! Not all of us read the International News earlier.

You're dreaming Panz. 'Help isn't on the way' from there.

Why don't I like that pompous jerk again?

And seriously people; how much different do you think it would be if they did send troops?

.... and obviously none of you noticed that Blair only avoided a damaging defeat at Labour's annual conference this week over pulling troops out of Iraq by winning the backing of the big trade unions.

Correct as well. Have you posted a story on it by any chance... or must I do my own homework for a change?

How about 300 less dead Americans...or is that not enough of a difference?

That is speculation Panz, and frankly I count good guys and bad guys, regardless of which flag they salute. Unless you are suggesting the French and/or German troops would have prevented 300 deaths, I see no difference there.

it seems that nations and their leaders do not like to learn from history. take the example of afghanistan; since alexander the great, plenty of foreign armies have tried to gain control over the country. has anyone ever been able to actually gain control over afghanistan ? perhaps a very gradual approach might work in bringing afghanistan in the modern world, but i think it will be a very slow process. i think these developments have to come from the afghani people (with encouragement and help from the outside). i don't think an occupying army has any chance whatsoever, IMO. hbg

Let's just say with other nations providing troops there could have been one American family not grieving right now. That's good enough for me. How 'bout you?

No, I'm sorry Panz. Had France or Germany pitched in; I would feel no less sad for a grieving French or German Family. Good guys and bad guys. Hell, for that matter, Iraqi families love there fallen sons and daughters too.

Hamburger, you make an excellent point. I can only hope you are wrong.