I got some so-called friends ...

<wringing hands for Olga>

Good advice here... Our friends' partners are sometimes so inexplicable. It's a mystery where they get 'em! And the socializing... maybe that's why some of us drink???

Well, here I am again.
I'm so impressed & grateful at the kindness & wisdom of you womenfolk here at A2K. Thank you for applying your thinking to my conundrum. This was really getting me down ...

Noddy, you partly hit the nail on the head when you said:

"You are wrestling with the fact that your friend has compromised her standards, figuring that a louse is better than no-man-at-all.

She's not the woman you thought she was.

This is a reason to re-evaluate your friendship--and to mourn.

Hold your dominion."

That is a big part of my confusion: How could she possibly do this! She has often said that she feels lonely & "incomplete" without a relationship. But this is a solution? What about loyalty to herself?

Another thing: Obviously there was contact going on b/n them when I thought that the relationship was totally finished. This reconciliation didn't happen in a day. I assumed that she was having nothing more to do with him. And participated in our discussions as if nothing new had developed. This makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. I guess I see her willingness to resume contact as something like an addiction to alcohol - you keep your obsession secret, but it over-rides all else.

Deb,

Your loyalty to your friend truly amazes me. I honestly couldn't have put myself through that for 3 years! But then, this must have been an exceptionally good friend, yes? I think you're right about taking some time out from the friendship, though. This is NOT a good time to discuss the the situation, & frankly, I think she'd feel incredibly embarrassed by what she'd said in the past & what has happened recently. So do I!
I am going to do a Google search about "cognitive dissonance". I wanna know about this!

ehBeth

You are so uncompromising in your expectations of relationships! So strong & clear! I am not half as strong as that & really admire someone who can do it. Your friends must consider you very valuable in their lives.

Boomerang & Diane

You know, I've never actually walked away from a relationship that mattered to me. Even when it might be the best thing for the other friend, or me. I like the idea of "keeping the door open", despite what's happened.

Piffka

Thank you! You know about this, don't you?

What I've failed to say is that my friend, C, is bi polar. She has struggled so valiantly against the imposition of this on her leading a full life. Drug trials & more drugs! Just recently the drug mix appeared to be working for her. She appeared to be getting somewhere with the the current ones, after much trial & error. Things were looking up. And then this!
I have the greatest sympathy & admiration for her in this struggle. But now I wonder, given the return to R. This is really hard to make sense of.

Ah - jargon! Sorry Olga.

Cognitive dissonance is just one theory of the way in which the experience of having our beliefs clash with evidence that is coming in can be formulated.

Thing is, (the theory says) if the belief/value/relationship is one we hold very dear, for good or bad reasons (and lust, and "I am nothing without this person" thinking, are very strong reasons for clinging to someone/thing), then dissonant evidence is very perturbing to us - and often ignites a wild clinging in denial of the evidence, (the stronger the evidence, and the closer we may be to having to change our belief, the stronger may be the clinging or denial according to this theory) and/or a wild oscillation - ie rejection vs clinging.

VERY perturbing. For the observer, as well.

Also - let us face it, a lot of the "in love" experience is based on chemical madness, and, in my humble view, the more extreme versions of it also have an element of perfectly meshing neuroses clicking resoundingly together - with a sensation that feels a lot like - "Oh! At last I have found the missing part of myself!!" or "Oh, sweet mystery of life at last I've found you!!!"

If your friend was a bit dippy anyway, this gets pretty damn silly.

In my experience, abusive relationships are especially likely to be just like this - for reasons which trauma research is beginning to clarify very well. I would be wondering about your friend's family history.....

Anyhoo - decision is yours.

I did not withdraw from my friend, by the way - though I was tempted to - and yes, she is a very special friend, though we drive each other nuts sometimes (because our ways of handling the world are very different). She is worth her weight in gold.


I considered the man as very dangerous, by the end - and he was - I just had to act as though she was having an episode of mental illness, and treat the situation as though she was delusional - this means not directly challenging the delusions - but gently encouraging signs of sanity, and gently introducing reality checking. No way was I going to desert her - as he, of course, was trying to get her friends to do - partly by spreading astounding slanders about her, etc. It was horrible.

But - that was my situation - yours is yours. You need to decid what suits your situation - as I know you will!

hey - I like Beth's ideas, too!!!

With my friend, I figured if we could ride out the hurricane, she would turn back into a normal person again - and she did. Phew! Hey - we have been friends for 30 years now - three weren't much - though it took a lot out of me....and everyone else.

Ack - is she in a manic phase, Olga?????

Absolutely no reason to be sorry about jargon, Deb. I wanted to know more because the theory is very interesting .. & relevant, maybe?

I honestly don't know, Deb. Actually, she seemed much happier recently, after some pretty depressing months while her Psychiatrist tinkered with getting the dosage of her medication "right". Many months of flatness & lack of energy, or enthusiasm for anything. Things appeared to be coming together for her, in all sorts of areas. She was happier than I'd seen her in months. The decision to reconcile with R was a total surprise.

"Also - let us face it, a lot of the "in love" experience is based on chemical madness, and, in my humble view, the more extreme versions of it also have an element of perfectly meshing neuroses clicking resoundingly together - with a sensation that feels a lot like - "Oh! At last I have found the missing part of myself!!" or "Oh, sweet mystery of life at last I've found you!!!"

Oh, I've been there & done that, Deb! I've often thought that extreme, passionate love is a form of madness ... Well, in my case, anyway! :wink:

I think dlowan's right on target here. And, it seems the friend is in a manic phase. Unfortunately, there isn't a heckuva lot you can do to change her mind - this is a chemical imbalance. It needs medication just like she'd need medicine if she had a failing thyroid.

She needs counseling, which I hope she's getting if she's on medication for bi-polar disorder. Perhaps the thing to do is be vaguely supportive and push her to tell her therapist about whatever? I don't suppose it'll hurt if her doctor knows that this is going on; the doctor might see it as a sign that the cocktail needs to be refined.

I really can't say that for certain, jespah. Mind you, I haven't seen C for the last week, only spoken to her on the phone. We've both been pretty busy. She's an intelligent & preceptive person & pretty aware of her "up" periods & the "downs", and talks openly about how her moods affect her. Her medication has been closely monitored by her doctor & psychiatrist.
I think it's actually more to do with feeling very unhappy alone, not in a relationship. She's often talked about this. It is obviously extremely important to her. But how she came to be involved with R again is a complete mystery to me. Given the pain he caused her by his words & actions, well it just doesn't make sense at all. It just doesn't fit with the things that she's constantly said. The only conclusion I can come to is that she's been communicating with R for a while & kept it secret, probably because of embarrassment. So it was a total surprise to me. Right now I'm just backing off for a while.

Her behaviour does sound a bit like she is going "up" Msolga - not in a good way - but you know her best?

Hmmmmmmmm, you may be right, Deb. But the thing is, right now her daughter is at home (holidays). From what I can gather she openly TELLS her mother when/if this is happening. This is as a result of some pretty scarey stuff that happened before C was diagnosed. I didn't know her then.

Jeez, I feel way out of my depth with this .... I don't think she would TOLERATE any interference. I also think she's been avoiding me since she told me about R being back on the scene.

msolga, I wonder if there is a tiny bit of guilt keeping you tethered? I had a friend who was severely disabled -- I forget the condition, but she had already lived well past her life expectancy at 20-something, was going blind, had very limited use of her limbs, etc. We became friends because I liked her sense of humor. But as we became better friends, all we would talk about was how sad and depressed she was, how much things hurt, how she was going to die soon, how she'd never find a man to love her for herself (she'd hooked up with some freak who gave her a STD), etc. Every conversational tangent would be turned to this.

I'd say to myself, well, yeah! She has a lot to complain about! It's not fair to be a fair-weather friend. So I'd listen, and listen, and listen... and eventually I realized that if she were not disabled, I wouldn't be putting up with it. We both were activists in the disabled community, and a big thing is to avoid being patronizing -- I was being patronizing in that I allowed her to get away with stuff I wouldn't allow a non-disabled friend to get away with.

So I had a talk with her about that, she was like, oooh, huh, OK (took it quite well), and we tried for a while, but it was one of those elephant in the room things -- if that was what was on her mind, that was what was on her mind, and I didn't want her to have to be all fake. So we stayed friends in a loose way -- stopped and chatted whenever we happened to see each other, but didn't go out of our way to get together.

Anyway, may or may not have any bearing, just something I thought of. It sounds like you have a great deal more basis to your friendship. (I was good friends with this person for only a matter of months.)

Good luck...

fair enough.

Give it - and yourself - a rest from it, eh??

((((((((((((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))))

Thanks, soz & Deb. I think I WILL give this a rest. And wait till/if she contacts me to see how she is. I don't want to patronize her, don't want to jump to the wrong conclusions, don't want to argue .... besides, having avoided me for the past 3 days (quite unusual), she clearly doesn't want to hear about my concerns, does she?

OK, off to bed for me. Thank you to everyone whose helped me get my head around this. I appreciate the time & thought you've put in very much.

night night.

fairies under your pillow

Doesn't that make the pillow kinda lumpy? :-D

Thank you, panzade!