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When will Hillary Clinton give up her candidacy ? Part 2

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 07:52 am
@blatham,
I thought the dad with the minty head looked like Benedict Cumberpatch, albeit a well minted up Benedict Cumberpatch.
Blickers
 
  3  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 08:05 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote edgar:
Quote:
I used to look up to you [blatham], much more than you would guess. Now I look on you as being a sheep for the fleecing.

Said from a poster who has spent the last three months agreeing with Lash, a conservative who has pretended to be an ultra progressive so she could incessantly slam the Democrats' strongest candidate, Hillary, seemingly from the Left. Using all the Republicans' arguments.

You're the only regular poster on here who hasn't seen through it. And you're complaining about other posters being gullible?
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 08:18 am
@blatham,
Quote Rush Limbaugh:
Quote:
If [Trump] genuinely loses this thing, he's going to concede it. The fact they're out there trying to tell people that he won't accept defeat no matter what is again, another attempt to taint the guy.


Quote blatham:
Quote:
Then we'll also note that nobody anywhere in the mainstream media (or anywhere else that I've noticed) has said what Limbaugh is claiming has been said.

Not true, Limbaugh is saying that media is making much of Trump's saying he would not necessarily concede defeat on Election Day, if he gets defeated. Trump was making "vote rigging" a theme of his campaign. And that's correct, the media criticized Trump heavily when Trump wouldn't say in one of the debates that he would accept defeat on Election Day, then went into his riff about vote rigging. The media then went into an examination that the US, unlike many other countries, accepts the results of the election and then peacefully goes on from there.

My objection to what Limbaugh said is not that the media did not do this, but what did Limbaugh expect would happen when his candidate wouldn't say in a nationally televised debate that he would not accept the results on Election Day? We are taught in school that one of the strengths of American democracy is the losing party accepting the results of the election, not using the election to commence an insurrection.

blatham
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 08:23 am
@izzythepush,
Ahhh, gotcha.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  4  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 08:40 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
I used to look up to you, much more than you would guess. Now I look on you as being a sheep for the fleecing. But I don't hold it against you. You are doing what you believe in. I feel sad more than anything else, more and more with each election cycle.

Let me, retroactively, thank you for that compliment even if it is now withdrawn.

My actual political stance is rather more complicated than "Yeah Hillary!". You and I share concerns about encysted structures of power and influence and there's no question that Clinton (and many others) maintain a dominance that is far from ideal. But I see this as a secondary threat. The primary threat comes from what has happened to the GOP as a consequence of a long string of events and personalities. I robustly deny the equivalence formulation re X is as bad as Y. It isn't even close, in my view. And all that is definitely not to say that progressives should leave her uncriticized or leave up on the push towards greater democracy and equality and access to power by citizens.

As to your sadness, that's entirely understandable. But for myself, I purposefully resist the sentiment because I deem it unhelpful to me or others (except as a reminder to keep one's shoulder to the wheel).

Finally, let me point out that we've just had our first black president, elected twice and now with approval ratings exceeding Reagan and reaching what Bill Clinton had at this point. And now you're about to have the first female president. These over-arching facts tell us, I think, that something very good indeed is happening in American politics, society, and culture.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 08:49 am
@Blickers,
Quote:
Quote blatham:
Quote:
Then we'll also note that nobody anywhere in the mainstream media (or anywhere else that I've noticed) has said what Limbaugh is claiming has been said.

Not true, Limbaugh is saying that media is making much of Trump's saying he would not necessarily concede defeat on Election Day,

But that is clearly not what Limbaugh is claiming. He isn't saying media is making to much of Trump's statements on this. He is explicitly saying media (in some general cumulative manner like all of them or most of them) are trying to convince people that Trump will not accept defeat. That's factually BS. All my reading across multiple sources reveals debates/discussions/ponderings about what Trump might do. Entirely valid given that Trump explicitly and purposefully said he wasn't going to say how he'd react to a loss.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 09:12 am
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

Quote edgar:
Quote:
I used to look up to you [blatham], much more than you would guess. Now I look on you as being a sheep for the fleecing.

Said from a poster who has spent the last three months agreeing with Lash, a conservative who has pretended to be an ultra progressive so she could incessantly slam the Democrats' strongest candidate, Hillary, seemingly from the Left. Using all the Republicans' arguments.

You're the only regular poster on here who hasn't seen through it. And you're complaining about other posters being gullible?


Interesting proclivity here to damn others for association and the implied betrayal of the standard groupthink. Perhaps both Lash and Edgar were simply thinking things through for themselves. I don't fully agree with either of them, but I do enjoy their posts and consider their views. Intolerance is an ugly thing.
snood
 
  3  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 09:14 am
intolerance is an ugly thing -georegeob1

I think I've found my new signature line
0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 09:20 am
@georgeob1,
Quote georgeob1:
Quote:
Interesting proclivity here to damn others for association and the implied betrayal of the standard groupthink.

No, just a rational reaction to seeing a poster who pushed conservative talking points for over a decade suddenly-at the start of a Presidential campaign year-turning around, claiming to be a born-again progressive, and spending the rest of the campaign year bashing the Democrats' strongest candidate incessantly using conservative talking points. Not hard to see through, and everyone except Edgar has done so.
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 09:20 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Finally, let me point out that we've just had our first black president, elected twice and now with approval ratings exceeding Reagan and reaching what Bill Clinton had at this point. And now you're about to have the first female president. These over-arching facts tell us, I think, that something very good indeed is happening in American politics, society, and culture.

What is so "over-arching" about the group identity stuff you are promoting? My experience has consistently been that individual differences are generally greater and more real than those among the group assumptions and stereotypes behind your "over-arching" nonsense. Indeed our Democracy is based on the consent of individuals, not groups.

When will Canada elect a Black or Female Premier? Perhaps you have some work to do in your own country.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 09:25 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

blatham wrote:

Finally, let me point out that we've just had our first black president, elected twice and now with approval ratings exceeding Reagan and reaching what Bill Clinton had at this point. And now you're about to have the first female president. These over-arching facts tell us, I think, that something very good indeed is happening in American politics, society, and culture.

What is so "over-arching" about the group identity stuff you are promoting? My experience has consistently been that individual differences are generally greater and more real than those among the group assumptions and stereotypes behind your "over-arching" nonsense. Indeed our Democracy is based on the consent of individuals, not groups.

When will Canada elect a Black or Female Premier? Perhaps you have some work to do in your own country.


Can I accurately infer from this that you don't see diversity as inherently a good thing for a democratic republic?
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 09:33 am
@snood,
You can infer that I have learned from experience that the important differences among people are their individual traits, abilities, talents and behaviors, not those associated with the supposed group identities imposed on them by the diversity theologians.

I believe Martin Luther King had something to say about judging people by the content of their characters as well.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 09:35 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
When will Canada elect a Black or Female Premier? Perhaps you have some work to do in your own country.


we had a female Prime Minister (Kim Campbell) over 20 years ago

we've had a number of black members of various legislatures. the black population is not large in Canada. Our equivalent population (re treatment/size/politics) is the aboriginal population - and we've currently got Wab Kinew, who is in a good line to become Prime Minister in the near future, if he doesn't choose to remain in his home province. We have had aboriginal premiers since 1984.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 09:36 am
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

No, just a rational reaction to seeing a poster who pushed conservative talking points for over a decade suddenly-at the start of a Presidential campaign year-turning around, claiming to be a born-again progressive, and spending the rest of the campaign year bashing the Democrats' strongest candidate incessantly using conservative talking points. Not hard to see through, and everyone except Edgar has done so.


You don't speak for "everyone" and you aren't sitting in judgment of Lash, Edgar or anyone else here.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 09:41 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

You can infer that I have learned from experience that the important differences among people are their individual traits, abilities, talents and behaviors, not those associated with the supposed group identities imposed on them by the diversity theologians.

I believe Martin Luther King had something to say about judging people by the content of their characters as well.

Martin Luther King's quote about the content of one's character can't ( or at least shouldn't ) be reinterpreted to mean he did not or would not consider diversity in culture something to be promoted and pursued.
snood
 
  3  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 09:45 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Blickers wrote:

No, just a rational reaction to seeing a poster who pushed conservative talking points for over a decade suddenly-at the start of a Presidential campaign year-turning around, claiming to be a born-again progressive, and spending the rest of the campaign year bashing the Democrats' strongest candidate incessantly using conservative talking points. Not hard to see through, and everyone except Edgar has done so.


You don't speak for "everyone" and you aren't sitting in judgment of Lash, Edgar or anyone else here.


He speaks for several of us when he says Lash's political chameleon act has been noticed and deemed dubious. And we judge each other here all day, every day.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 10:01 am
@georgeob1,
Set suggests I also mention our premier in Ontario - female, married to her wife, Jane, in 2005

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/960265/images/o-KATHLEEN-WYNNE-GAY-LESBIAN-facebook.jpg

Laughing
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 10:01 am
@snood,
I didn't interpret his words at all : I merely repeated them. As to the rest, the synthesis of many cultural elements is a long-standing observable fact of Amrican life. That isn't at issue here.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 10:03 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

He speaks for several of us when he says Lash's political chameleon act has been noticed and deemed dubious. And we judge each other here all day, every day.


Perhaps you do far more than others....
snood
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2016 10:18 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I didn't interpret his words at all : I merely repeated them. As to the rest, the synthesis of many cultural elements is a long-standing observable fact of Amrican life. That isn't at issue here.

Good gracious you're slippery.

A recap:
Blatham's post was pointing out and lauding the progress our american culture is experiencing, and saying that progress is manifested by our election of our first black and now possibly first female president.

You responded to that post by saying he was "promoting group identity stuff" - a strawman and non-sequitor in my opinion - which strawman you then proceed to mount an argument against, by saying our democracy thrives on the consent of individuals, not groups.

Since it appeared to me you were poo-poohing Blatham's compliment to the nation, I asked you if you think diversity is a good thing.

Your response to that included MLK's quote, and that (I guess) diversity (synthesis) is by definition just a part of American life, and by the way not even at issue here.

Which is why I say you're slippery, because diversity is what Blatham was originally talking about, so how was it not even part of the discussion (or "not at issue here", as you put it)?
 

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