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Those were the days: when was America greatest? When was life in the US best?

 
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2016 06:58 pm
@giujohn,
As much as I find it odd agreeing with you I'm pretty sure you're right.

My understanding was that his friend and business advisor Stanley Levison was formerly active in the US CPA - and J. Edgar Hoover thought he might manipulate MLK. MLK was ask to denounce and disengage from Levison and he refused. Thus the furphy that MLK was communist (as opposed to being loyal and standing by his principles).
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2016 07:03 pm
@hingehead,
I don't think you and Giujohn mean the same thing by the word "communist". Ask him if he thinks Obama is a communist.

Martin Luther King stated that he believed in the use of government to redistribute economic power. He was far to the left of Obama.

Martin Luther King wrote:
And one day we must ask the question, ‘Why are there forty million poor people in America? And when you begin to ask that question, you are raising questions about the economic system, about a broader distribution of wealth.’ When you ask that question, you begin to question the capitalistic economy. And I’m simply saying that more and more, we’ve got to begin to ask questions about the whole society…

glitterbag
 
  3  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2016 09:27 pm
@hingehead,
It might be helpful to remember that when Hoover was growing up in turn of the century Washington D.C, that city was still very much a Southern City. Today people in other parts of the country view it as a pit of un-American value and scandalous and dishonest people. Maybe its really not all that different, they used to sip sweet tea, speak with a southern drawl and everybody's momma hired help to raise the children, clean the house and prepare the meals.
Now, our elected officials work 3 days a week, spend part of that time raising money for re-election and the other 4 days they are pressing the flesh in their districts (and raising money). And their creature comforts are paid by the taxpayers.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  4  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2016 10:10 pm
@giujohn,
He was no communist; he frequently denounced communism. But it's probably fair to say he was a socialist - of sorts, in any case. No Marxist - he critiqued what he saw as the flaws in Marx's thinking more than once too. But a christian socialist, perhaps; a democratic socialist; or at least a social-democrat. Someone, in any case, who as he once put it looked for "a higher synthesis that combines the truths of both" communism and capitalism.

Some relevant MLK quotes:

Quote:
I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic. [T]oday capitalism has outlived its usefulness. It has brought about a system that takes necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes

(Letter to Coretta, 1952)

Quote:
That doesn't only apply on the race issue, it applies on the class question. You know, sometimes a class system can be as vicious and evil as a system based on racial injustice

(Speech in Atlanta, 1965)

Quote:
Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.

(1965 speech to the Negro American Labor Council)

Quote:
[A]fter Selma and the voting rights bill, we moved into a new era, which must be the era of revolution. We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power

(Speech at SCLC retreat, 1967)

Quote:
True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. A true revolution of values will soon look uneasily on the glaring contrast of poverty and wealth with righteous indignation. It will look across the seas and see individual capitalists of the West investing huge sums of money in Asia, Africa and South America, only to take the profits out with no concern for the social betterment of the countries, and say, "This is not just."

(Speech in New York City, 1967)

Quote:
These are revolutionary times. All over the globe men are revolting against old systems of exploitation and oppression, and out of the wounds of a frail world, new systems of justice and equality are being born. The shirtless and barefoot people of the land are rising up as never before. [..] We in the West must support these revolutions. It is a sad fact that because of comfort, complacency, a morbid fear of communism, and our proneness to adjust to injustice, the Western nations that initiated so much of the revolutionary spirit of the modern world have now become the arch antirevolutionaries. This has driven many to feel that only Marxism has a revolutionary spirit.

(Same speech in New York City, 1967)

Quote:
[W]e must honestly face the fact that the movement must address itself to the question of restructuring the whole of American society. There are forty million poor people here, and one day we must ask the question, "Why are there forty million poor people in America?" And when you begin to ask that question, you are raising a question about the economic system, about a broader distribution of wealth. When you ask that question, you begin to question the capitalistic economy. [..]

We are called upon to help the discouraged beggars in life's marketplace. But one day we must come to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. It means that questions must be raised. And you see, my friends, when you deal with this you begin to ask the question, "Who owns the oil?" You begin to ask the question, "Who owns the iron ore?" You begin to ask the question, "Why is it that people have to pay water bills in a world that's two-thirds water?" These are words that must be said.

(Speech at the SCLC Convention, 1967)

These are thoughts that any socialist would echo, but they stemmed from his religious beliefs as much as from his political ones. In a 1966 speech to SCLC staff he explained: "I believe that God made it all. I believe that God made the coal. I believe that the gasoline that goes in my automobile is there because God made it, and I believe firmly that the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. I don't think it belongs to Mr. Rockefeller. I don't think it belongs to Mr. Ford. I think the earth is the Lord's, and since we didn't make these things ourselves, we must share them with each other. And I think this is the only way we are going to solve the basic problems and the restructuring of our society which I think is so desperately needed." He'd hardly have been the first christian socialist though.

I also found this quote from 1967, but couldn't track down an original (or reliable secondary) source:

Quote:
In a sense, you could say we are engaged in a class struggle, yes. It will be a long and difficult struggle, for our program calls for a redistribution of economic power


Looking for this kind of MLK quotes, context counts though. For example, you might come across this one, attributed to that 1966 speech to SCLC staff:

Quote:
There must be better distribution of wealth and maybe America must move toward a democratic socialism.


Which is what he felt, but the fuller context of this quote (p.19) is about him emphasizing that this did not make him a Marxist or a communist:

Quote:
I am not going to allow anybody to put me in the bind of making me say, every time I said there must be better distribution of wealth and maybe America must move toward a democratic socialism, [that] I am saying that we must be communist or Marxist


That's right, though: favouring democratic socialism doesn't need to make one a Marxist, much less a communist.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2016 11:20 pm
@maxdancona,
I would not be in the least surprised if guijohn and I assigned different meanings to the same words. I'm going to call MLK a socialist, just like Christ was.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 06:00 am
I look at MLK as someone who saw injustice, sometimes unspeakable injustice perpetrated against his race, and faced with adversity, with courage, dignity, and shear determination, he brought it into the spotlight and the national consciousness.

He did so through a non-violent strategy and he asked those who followed him to do the same; not unlike Christ. He asked his supporters to keep their eyes on the prize. And like Christ he to was killed.

What followed Christ was a movement that is still with us today. After MLK's death the black community did not keep their eyes on the prize, they did not adhere to the non-violent philosophy.

They let the anger of his death consume the movement. I believe if they had kept their eyes on the prize by now there would have been no reason for race pimps like BLM.

His political ideology was not as important to me as was his message of peace. And I believe if his movement had survived, his politics would have moved to the right of center as there would not have been a need to be so much of a socialist.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 06:59 am
@giujohn,
You are completely backwards Guijohn. Martin Luther King blamed White people and the social structures of White Supremacy for the violence that happened during his movement.

You are saying that Black people are responsible for the injustice they face in society. Martin Luther King said the exact opposite. It is you, as a White person, who are responsible for the injustice. That is why it is so ridiculous for you to use Martin Luther King as an excuse to not care now about the injustice that Black people to still face.

In 1967 there were violent riots in Detroit in black neighborhoods that lead to to deaths of 43 people. Martin Luther King said about those riots

Martin Luther King wrote:
Rioting is the language of the unheard.


I already posted the complete quote in context so you can see exactly what he was talking about. He was blaming White people and society for creating the conditions that were responsible for the rioting and saying that White people had the moral obligation to stand up for justice.

What do you think about that GiuJohn? Are you taking your responsibility to work to end racial injustice against Black people?

You don't seem to have listened to what Dr. King actually said. I find it ironic that you compre MLK to Jesus (another radical socialist who called on the privileged to stand up to injustice). You don't seem to have listened to Him either (but that is the other thread).

Martin Luther King wrote:
Why does white America delude itself, and how does it rationalize the evil it retains?

The majority of white Americans consider themselves sincerely committed to justice for the Negro. They believe that American society is essentially hospitable to fair play and to steady growth toward a middle-class Utopia embodying racial harmony. But unfortunately this is a fantasy of self-deception and comfortable vanity.”
giujohn
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 07:31 am
@maxdancona,
I take from Martin Luther King what I choose. I never said that black people were responsible for the injustice they faced. I am also not responsible for the injustice they faced... I was only 13 years old... And my entire adult life as a police officer was about equal justice.

It appears to me that your anger is an impediment to you and other black people to realize justice.
hingehead
 
  3  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 07:50 am
@giujohn,
How delightful that racial discrimination ended when you turned 13.
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 08:29 am
@hingehead,
How delightful is it when you twist words into a completely different meaning and not even very cleverly done?
Me thinks your head is actually unhinged.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 08:57 am
@giujohn,
giujohn wrote:

I look at MLK as someone who saw injustice, sometimes unspeakable injustice perpetrated against his race,


His political ideology was not as important to me


He would see many of the same injustices today. His political ideology is what matters about him.

It's awful to read his speeches of decades ago and to realize that things are not better for many people in his community - and are worse for some. It's a blemish on America.

A horrible waste.
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 10:14 am
@ehBeth,
I disagree... Gone are the days of the segregated lunch counters bathrooms and water fountains... Gone are the days of the indiscriminate lynchings. Gone are the days when interracial marriage was illegal.

There are no more Jim Crow laws. Black people serve at every level of government and Industry. Black people are represented in all forms of media... Some would say even over-represented.

Racism is no longer an institution or systemic. I think Martin Luther King would be more than pleased at those results but he would also be dismayed by the lack of leadership in the black community and by the breakdown of the nuclear family. He wasn't aligned with the Black Panther Party nor would he be aligned with the New Black Panther Party or even BLM; I'm confident of that.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 10:17 am
@giujohn,
giujohn wrote:

I Gone are the days of the indiscriminate lynchings.


No, it's just that now most of the indiscriminate lynchings are carried out by the police.
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 10:24 am
@izzythepush,
Yes... Yes we know Izzy... It's common knowledge that all police officers carry a noose their patrol car... They're issued a new one every shift... we even have a special one that we keep on hand for British visitors... they're dyed pink.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 10:34 am
@giujohn,
giujohn wrote:
Racism is no longer an institution or systemic.


I think you live a very privileged life.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 11:16 am
@giujohn,
You keep trying it on don't you? I can see why you had to leave the force.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 11:56 am
@ehBeth,
Yes, I do...I live in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  3  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 02:18 pm
@giujohn,
Gun=noose in todays society. As a cop you should know that.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 04:09 pm
@giujohn,
Quote:
How delightful is it when you twist words into a completely different meaning and not even very cleverly done?


No, I'm pretty sure you said racial discrimination is over in the USA. Did I get what age you were when it ended wrong? Happy for you tell me what age you were when that glorious day happened.

Quote:
Me thinks your head is actually unhinged.

You should know what a wonderful compliment that is to me, coming from you.

Also you running two A2K accounts? You sound a lot like tonynnnn
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2016 07:12 pm
I presume we are talking the US? Possibly pre-colonial days? Hard to tell because we don't know enough.

Post-colonisation? I'm kind of thinking revolution. With all the caveats re slavery, woman's rights etc. I think there was an intellectual fertility that is still breathtaking in its daring....constructing a nation mindfully.
 

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