0
   

Let's talk about replacing GWBush in 2004.

 
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2004 10:29 am
More fascist bullshit from the conservatives (sic) - <sigh!> !!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2004 12:16 pm
My man, Goldberg, continues speaking the truth...

Sen. Ted Kennedy gave another one of his angry speeches this week. With all the gravitas he could muster, he recycled his standard complaint: that the Iraq war was never really about WMDs or the war on terror. It was a "political product" from "Day 1" of the president's administration.

This echoes Kennedy's earlier diatribes, like last fall when he said, "Before the war, week after week after week after week, we were told lie after lie after lie after lie."

Personally, I think Kennedy's an embarrassment to his party. But that doesn't change the fact that he's taken seriously or that he speaks for a large constituency. So let's try to deal with the "Kennedy School's" view of the Iraq war.

First let me admit that I think the failure to find significant evidence of weapons of mass destruction easily constitutes one of the greatest intelligence blunders since Pearl Harbor. There's still a chance we'll find something. But if we do, it will probably be too little, too late to change this basic assessment.

Critics of the Bush Administration are probably cheering, "Finally! Goldberg's stopped drinking the White House's Kool-Aid!"

But hold on. To argue that this was a huge intelligence blunder is to largely let George Bush off the hook for the even-more-popular Bush critique: that he lied to the American people about Iraq.

For Bush to have lied, he had to have known that there were no WMDs, right? It's not a lie unless you know the truth. If you say something you think is true that later turns out to be false, we don't call that a "lie," we call that a "mistake."

You could look it up.

This vital distinction seems to be lost on many smart people. For example, the online magazine Slate has been hosting an interesting discussion among the most respected and prominent liberals who supported the Iraq war. The question before them, more or less, is whether they regret it. Some do. Some don't. Most hold positions awash in shades of gray.

One of those is Kenneth Pollack, the former Clinton NSC staffer and author of the hugely influential book, "The Threatening Storm." Pollack's book was the most coherent and sustained case for the war from any quarter. Slate's round-robin is timed to coincide with a must-read cover story in the current issue of The Atlantic in which Pollack tries to figure out where he - and we - went wrong on WMDs.

Anyway, Pollack tells Slate, "If I had to write 'The Threatening Storm' over again I certainly would not have been so unequivocal that war was going to be a necessity."

In response, George Packer, a prominent liberal hawk, says, "Ken Pollack should be congratulated: How many leading voices on this issue have subjected themselves to such honest criticism? What he got wrong he got wrong because the intelligence was mistaken. What the administration got wrong it got wrong because it didn't care about the intelligence."

This encapsulates pretty much everything that's wrong with even the White House's most respected critics: a nearly total inability to consider the possibility that this administration operated in good faith.

Packer says Pollack's mistake was based on the best intelligence available; however, Bush & Co are a bunch of bloodthirsty ideologues or greedy liars or both.

Unfortunately, there are too many anti-Bush slanders out there to count, let alone debunk, but they are all premised on the "fact" that Bush lied.

But nobody has made a remotely persuasive case that Bush lied. The German, Russian, French, Israeli, British, Chinese and U.S. governments all agreed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. The German assessment was even more dire than our own. They were convinced Saddam would have a nuclear weapon by 2005.

Bill Clinton and his entire administration believed Saddam had WMDs. In 2002 Robert Einhorn, Clinton's point man on WMDs, testified to Congress, "Today, or at most within a few months, Iraq could launch missile attacks with chemical or biological weapons against its neighbors" including our 100,000 troops in Saudi Arabia.

The threat - chemical, biological and nuclear - against U.S. territory proper was only a few years away, according to Einhorn. Dick Gephardt, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, Wesley Clark, Joe Lieberman, Tony Blair, Hillary Clinton, Jacques Chirac, Gerhard Schroeder: all of these people believed Iraq had major stockpiles of WMDs.

Were they all "liars" like President Bush? No? Why not?

You can't have it both ways. You can't say Bush lied while others who said the same thing were being honest. The White House was operating with fundamentally identical information to that of Clinton, Pollack and Einhorn. What was different was that this White House needed to deal with the post-9/11 world.

Maybe that clouded Bush's judgment - or opened his eyes. Let's have that argument. I certainly believe mistakes were made (though I still believe the war was right and just). But if you start from Kennedy's premise that the WMD thing was made up, I can't take you seriously.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2004 05:12 pm
If The Opposition has an argument more substantial than mere whining, it doesn't seem to be getting it to the public very well.

McGentix wrote:
I can't wait for another four years of liberal whining! It's like a strange music always on in the background...

To which BillW responded:
Quote:
More fascist bullshit from the conservatives (sic) - <sigh!> !!!!!!!


The Majority Opinion, So Far This Month:

Reelect Bush?
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations of Peter Hart (D) and Robert Teeter (R). Jan. 10-12, 2004. N=1,002 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.
"Looking ahead to next year's presidential election, do you feel George W. Bush deserves to be reelected, or do you feel he does not deserve to be reelected?"

Deserves: 51% Does Not Deserve: 42%
Advantage: Bush

"If the election for president were held today, and George W. Bush were running as the Republican candidate and [see below] were the Democratic candidate, for whom would you vote?"
G. W. Bush: 54% H. Dean: 37%
G. W. Bush: 53% W. Clark: 35%
G. W. Bush: 55% R. Gephardt: 34%
G. W. Bush: 54% J. Kerry: 35%

Advantage: Bush

CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. Jan. 9-11, 2004. N=793 likely voters nationwide. MoE ± 4.
"If [see below] were the Democratic Party's candidate and George W. Bush were the Republican Party's candidate, who would you be more likely to vote for: [see below], the Democrat, or George W. Bush, the Republican?" If undecided: "As of today, do you lean more toward [see below], the Democrat, or Bush, the Republican?" Names rotated

G. W. Bush: 58% H. Dean: 41%
G. W. Bush: 56% W. Clark 42%
G. W. Bush: 55% R. Gephardt: 42%
G. W. Bush: 55% J. Kerry: 43%

Advantage: Bush

"Which comes closest to your view about the election for president in November? You plan to vote for Bush regardless of whom the Democrats nominate for president. You are waiting to see who the Democrats nominate for president before you make up your mind about who to vote for. OR, You plan to vote against Bush regardless of whom the Democrats nominate for president." Options rotated
Vote For Bush: 39% Waiting: 28% Vote against Bush: 33%
Advantage: Bush

Pew Research Center for the People & the Press survey conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates. Jan. 6-11, 2004. N=1,140 registered voters nationwide.
"Looking ahead to the general election in November, would you like to see George W. Bush reelected president in 2004 or would you prefer that a Democratic candidate win the election?" If "Other" or "Someone else": "If you had to choose, would you like to see George W. Bush reelected or would you prefer that a Democratic candidate win the election?"

Bush: 48% Democratic Candidate: 38%
Advantage: Bush

President Bush and the Bush Administration
CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. Jan. 9-11, 2004. N=1,003 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"Please tell me whether you agree or disagree with George W. Bush on the issues that matter most to you."

Agree: 55% Disagree: 44%
Advantage: Bush

President Bush: Job Ratings
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations of Peter Hart (D) and Robert Teeter (R). Jan. 10-12, 2004. N=1,002 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.
"In general, do you approve or disapprove of the job George W. Bush is doing as president?"

Approve: 54% Disapprove: 41%
Advantage: Bush

Gallup Poll and CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll
"Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president?"

Approve: 59% Disapprove: 38%
Advantage: Bush

Pew Research Center for the People & the Press survey conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates. Jan. 6-11, 2004. N=1,503 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president?" If "Depends": "Overall, do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president?"

Approve: 56% Disapprove: 34%
Advantage: Bush

Newsweek Poll conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates. Jan. 8-9, 2004. N=1,001 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president?"

Approve: 54% Disapprove: 41%
Advantage: Bush


FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. Jan. 7-8, 2004. N=900 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"Do you approve or disapprove of the job George W. Bush is doing as president?"

Approve: 58% Disapprove: 31%
Advantage: Bush

Associated Press poll conducted by Ipsos-Public Affairs. Jan. 5-7, 2004. N=774 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.6.
"Overall, do you approve, disapprove or have mixed feelings about the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president?" If "mixed feelings" or not sure: "If you had to choose, do you lean more toward approve or disapprove?"

Approve: 56% Disapprove: 42%
Advantage: Bush

President Bush: Favorability Ratings
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations of Peter Hart (D) and Robert Teeter (R). Jan. 10-12, 2004. N=1,002 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.
"Now I'm going to read you the names of several public figures and groups, and I'd like you to rate your feelings toward each one as either very positive, somewhat positive, neutral, somewhat negative, or very negative. If you don't know the name, please just say so. George W. Bush."

Very Positive: 38%
Somewhat Positive: 17%
Neutral: 8% Somewhat Negative: 13%
Very Negative: 24%

Advantage: Bush

CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. Jan. 2-5, 2004. N=1,029 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"Next, I'd like to get your overall opinion of some people in the news. As I read each name, please say if you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of this person -- or if you have never heard of him or her. George W. Bush."

Favorable: 65% Unfavorable: 35%
Advantage: Bush

Vice President Dick Cheney: Job Ratings
CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. Jan. 9-11, 2004. N=1,003 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"Do you approve or disapprove of the way Dick Cheney is handling his job as vice president?"
Approve: 56% Disapprove: 36%
Advantage: Bush

Direction of the Country
Right Track/Wrong Track
Associated Press poll conducted by Ipsos-Public Affairs. Jan. 5-7, 2004. N=500 adults nationwide.

Right Direction: 49% Wrong Direction: 46%
Advantage: Bush

CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. Jan. 2-5, 2004. N=1,029 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"In general, are you satisfied or dissatisfied with the way things are going in the United States at this time?"

Satisfied: 55% Dissatisfied: 43%
Advantage: Bush


CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. Jan. 9-11, 2004. N=1,003 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"All in all, do you think it was worth going to war in Iraq, or not?"

Worth Going To War: 59% Not Worth Going To War: 38%
Advantage: Bush

Newsweek Poll conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates. Jan. 8-9, 2004. N=1,001 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the situation in Iraq?"

Approve: 50% Disapprove: 43%
Advantage: Bush

"Please tell me if each of the following makes you more likely or less likely to vote to reelect George W. Bush next year, or if it won't have much effect on your vote. What about [see below]? Does this make you more likely or less likely to vote to reelect Bush, or will it not have much effect on your vote?"
"The way George W. Bush and his Administration have handled the situation in postwar Iraq"
More Likely: 40% Less Likely: 36% Not Much Effect: 22%
Advantage: Bush

"From what you know now, do think the United States did the right thing in taking military action against Iraq last March, or not?"
Right Thing: 60% Not Right Thing: 33%
Advantage: Bush

CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. Jan. 2-5, 2004. N=1,029 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the situation with Iraq?"

Approve: 61% Disapprove: 36%
Advantage: Bush

"Do you approve or disapprove of the United States' decision to go to war with Iraq in March 2003?"
Approve: 63% Disapprove: 35%
Advantage: Bush

"Do you approve or disapprove of the way the U.S. has handled the situation with Iraq since the major fighting ended in April 2003?"
Approve: 60% Disapprove: 38%
Advantage: Bush

Associated Press poll conducted by Ipsos-Public Affairs. Jan. 5-7, 2004. N=774 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.6
"And if the election for Congress were held today, would you want to see the Republicans or Democrats win control of Congress?"
Democrats: 42% Republicans: 44%
Advantage: Bush

CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. Jan. 2-5, 2004. N=800 likely voters nationwide. MoE ± 4.
"If the elections for Congress were being held today, which party's candidate would you vote for in your congressional district: the Democratic Party's candidate or the Republican Party's candidate?" If undecided: "As of today, do you lean more toward the Democratic Party's candidate or the Republican Party's candidate?"

Democrats: 45% Republicans: 50%
Advantage: Bush

http://www.pollingreport.com/images/Gsatisfied.GIF
Advantage: Bush

http://www.pollingreport.com/images/ABCmoney.gif
Advantage: Bush

http://www.pollingreport.com/images/galissues.gif
Advantage: Bush

http://www.pollingreport.com/images/ABCwar.GIF
Advantage: Bush

Just to help those who are keeping score, that's 30 - Love.

Tennis, anyone?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2004 05:18 pm
When great changes occur in history, when great principles are involved, as a rule the majority are wrong. The minority are right.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2004 05:22 pm
No, the minority are left. Wink
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2004 06:18 pm
Actually, the minority is in the middle and they decide who wins -
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2004 09:36 am
Quote:
Jan. 17, 2004 | In the Declaration of Independence, the American colonists listed their grievances against King George: He had attempted to "render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power," he had deprived the colonists "of the benefits of trial by jury," he had "made Judges dependent on his Will alone," and he had transported colonists "beyond Seas to be tried for pretend Offences."

In an extraordinary brief [PDF format] filed with the United States Supreme Court this week, five experienced U.S. military lawyers have leveled precisely the same charges at another would-be King George: the current president of the United States. Only this time, the oppressed citizens aren't American colonists; they're detainees being held at the U.S. naval base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba...

What they have filed is remarkable -- a sober but stinging indictment of the Bush administration's overreaching in the war on terror. Excerpts of their brief follow...
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/01/17/military/index.html
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2004 09:47 am
need to watch quick ad to get to this...
Quote:
O'Neill sounds an alarm against an unfit president who lacks "credibility with his most senior officials," behind whom looms a dark "puppeteer," as O'Neill calls Cheney, and a closed cabal. "A strict code of personal fealty to Bush -- animated by the embrace of a few unquestioned ideologues -- seemed to be in collision with a faith in the broader ideals of honest inquiry."

He is upset at the regular violations he sees against his notion of "sound" government. There is, he concludes, "a pattern: either no process, or a truncated one, where efforts to collect evidence and construct smart policy are, with little warning, co-opted by the White House political team, or the Vice President, or whoever got to the President and said something, true or not."

Invading Iraq was on the agenda of the first meeting of the Principals Committee of the National Security Council, which O'Neill attended, months before 9/11, and it was pushed relentlessly. Regressive tax cuts creating massive deficits were implemented without economic justification as "the administration has managed to kill the whys at every turn." When the political team distorts basic economic numbers on tax cuts and inserts them into the 2001 State of the Union address, O'Neill yells, "This is complete bullshit!" It is "something that knowledgeable people in the U.S. government knew to be false." The business executive is shocked at the derogation of policy in favor of corporate special interests -- a "combination of confidentiality and influence by powerful interested parties" -- at the expense of even scientific evidence. He learns that moderate Republicans such as Secretary of State Colin Powell, EPA director Christie Whitman (whose effort to affirm policy on global warming is in her word "slaughtered" by Cheney and the politicos), and he himself "may have been there, in large part, as cover." ...

...Bush appears as a bully, using nicknames to demean people. He appears querulous (When Bush orders a cheeseburger and it doesn't arrive quickly, he summons his chief of staff. "'You're the chief of staff. You think you're up to getting us some cheeseburgers?' Card nodded. No one laughed. He all but raced out of the room"). He appears manipulated ("'Stick to principle' is another phrase that has a tonic effect on Bush" -- it was used by his senior political advisor Karl Rove to push for additional tax cuts). He appears incurious and, above all, intently political. When Bush holds forth it is often to demonstrate that he's not Clinton. He informs his NSC that on Middle East peace "Clinton overreached," but that he will take Ariel Sharon "at face value," and will not commit himself to the peace process: "I don't see much we can do over there at this point. I think it's time to pull out of that situation." Powell is "startled," but Bush reverts in the meeting to "the same flat, unquestioning demeanor that O'Neill was familiar with."

The "inscrutable" Cheney emerges as the power behind the throne, orchestrating the government by stealth and leaks to undermine opposing views. He uses tariffs as "political bait" for the midterm elections. When O'Neill argues that out-of-control deficits will cause a "fiscal crisis," Cheney "cut him off. 'Reagan proved deficits don't matter,' he said. 'We won the midterms. This is our due.'"

In the end, Cheney fires O'Neill, the first time a vice president has ever dismissed a Cabinet member.

O'Neill's revelations have not been met by any factual rebuttal. Instead, they have been greeted with anonymous character assassination from a "senior official": "Nobody listened to him when he was in office. Why should anybody now?" Then the White House announced that O'Neill was under investigation for abusing classified documents, though he claimed they were not and the White House had eagerly shoveled carefully edited NSC documents to Woodward.

Quietly, O'Neill and his publisher have prepared an irrefutable response. Soon they will post every one of the 19,000 documents underlying the book on the Internet. The story will not be calmed.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2004/01/15/o_neill/index.html
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2004 09:52 am
GW Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 14, 2004
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2004 12:39 pm
"Spacial entrepreneurs?" Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2004 01:39 pm
Mankind is drawn to the heavens for the same reason we were once drawn into unknown lands and across the open sea.
- GW Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 14, 2004

Hunting and fishing on Mars? Shocked
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2004 01:52 pm
You have to wonder...were these comments in the speech, or was he ad-libbing?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2004 02:04 pm
I think he was spacing out.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2004 02:06 pm
hobitbob wrote:
You have to wonder...were these comments in the speech, or was he ad-libbing?
See here, the speech:
Space exploration
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2004 02:34 pm
The "spacial entrepreneur" appears to have been a ad-lib. Aprently they didn't medicate him adequately prior to the speech.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jan, 2004 01:14 pm
I don't know where the poll was taken, but I saw on the tv screen that Bush's approval rating is down to 50 percent, and his disapproval rating is 45 percent! IS THAT GOOD NEWS OR WHAT? c.i.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jan, 2004 10:05 pm
c.i. That's good news. Yes it is
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jan, 2004 01:40 am
That would be the latest CBS News/New York Times Poll, c.i. , which is roughly contemporaneous with an almost identically worded NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll which pegs the approve/disapprove spread at 54/41, pretty much in line with where it has been since mid '03, and pretty much in line with similar polls reported by other organizations. You can see them both Here at PollingReport.Com. A January 15 Gallup Poll does sort of "split the difference, and does indicate a downward, if less dramatic, trend. The commentary accompanying the Gallup poll is thought-provoking, but perhaps less than encouraging for Democrats.

What I'd say was most interesting about the most recent CBS poll is the sudden presentation of a magnitude of rating change well outside the established norm for that particular poll, and so strikingly at variance with similar and closely time-related polls. The CBS poll is interesting, yes, but whether or not it is significant remains to be seen. Tuesday's State of The Union ASddress will occasion lots of polls, the aggregate of which will tell far more.
0 Replies
 
caprice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jan, 2004 02:36 am
Just out of curiosity, what were the polls just prior to the Gore - Bush race?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jan, 2004 08:18 am
caprice wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what were the polls just prior to the Gore - Bush race?


At roughly this same relative point in the 2000 campaign, each were their respective party's frontrunners, according to this CNN poll, while in November, just prior to Election Day, as shown here, the race was essentially a too-close-to-call statistical dead heat.
0 Replies
 
 

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