Let's talk about replacing GWBush in 2004.

Reply Tue 4 Jan, 2005 12:53 pm

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Some of you may not know this, but in two months I'll be a civilian for the first time since I was 17. Yep, I'm getting out of the Army. It's an Unqualified Resignation from Active Duty- no National Guard, no Reserves. A clean break. This is a decision I made a few years ago, so it's not like I've been doing a lot of soul searching or anything like that. I've enjoyed every minute of my time in the service, and the Army's done more for me than I'll ever be able to put into words. I'm just ready to move on and enjoy other things in life. That doesn't mean I'll stop supporting the cause. I'll just be serving in a different way.
2Slick: Unfortunately at this time we must refuse your request. If you wish you can re-submit in triplicate for further consideration prior to additional rejection.

"You're wasting your time," Doc Daneeka was forced to tell him [Yossarian].

"Can't you ground someone who's crazy?"

"Oh sure, I have to. There's a rule saying I have to ground anyone who's crazy."

"Then why don't you ground me? I'm crazy. . . ask any of the others, they'll tell you how crazy I am."

"They're crazy."

"Then why don't you ground them?"

"Why don't they ask me to ground them?"

"Because they're crazy, that's why."

"Of course they're crazy," Doc Daneeka replied. "I just told you they're crazy, didn't I? And you can't let crazy people decide whether you're crazy of not, can you?"

Yossarian looked at him soberly and tried another approach. "Is Orr crazy?"

"Sure he is," Doc Daneeka said.

"Can you ground him?"

"I sure can, but first he has to ask me to. That's part of the rule."

"Then why doesn't he ask you to?"

"Because he's crazy," Doc Daneeka said. "He has to be crazy to keep flying combot missions after all the close calls he's had. Sure, I can ground Orr. But first he has to ask me to."

"That's all he has to do to be grounded?"

"That's all. Let him ask me."

"And then you can ground him?" Yossarian asked.

"No, then I can't ground him."

"You mean there's a catch?"

"Sure there's a catch," Doc Daneeka replied. "Catch-22. Anyone who wants to get out of combat duty isn't really crazy."
pp. 54-55

Apparently deserving to be discharged is as bad a reason to be discharged as insanity these days. No draft, huh? Lots of people's children are dying over there. And I appreciate the effort. However, I have to continue to ask. Is it necessary? Is it the best way to solve the problems? Or has it made it all much worse?

Unnecesarry war is stupid......but wars that inflame rather than solve the problems are insane.
0 Replies
cicerone imposter
Reply Tue 4 Jan, 2005 01:27 pm
Well said, Lola. All wars are stupid; most end up being allies and friends. Just skip the war part.
0 Replies
cicerone imposter
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 05:15 pm
[Time to end political parties and their divisive influence.]
Friends,Okay, so I lied. But I think I DID say "probably" the last email today. This came from a friend and I thought I'd pass it on, not because I am a Michael Moore fan -- I'm not, and I haven't seen his movies (this includes me, ci.i) -- but because of the message at the end, about abuse. Of course, many of you will disagree, but it won't kill you to read something else you disagree with. Frank

----- Original Message -----

From Michael Moore

Dear Friends,

It is no surprise that the Republicans are sore winners. They have spent the better part of the past month beating their chests, threatening to send to Siberia any Republican who doesn't toe the line (poor Arlen Specter), and promising everything short of martial law if the Democrats don't do what they are told.

What's worse is to watch the pathetic sight of the DLC (the conservative, pro-corporate group of Democrats) apologizing for being Democrats and promising to quote purge unquote; the party of the likes of, well, all of US! Their comments are so hilarious and really not even worth recognizing but the media is paying so much attention to them, I thought it might be worth doing a little reality check.

The most people the DLC is able to get out to an event of theirs is about 200 at their annual dinner (where you have to pay thousands of dollars to get in).

Contrast this with the following:

Total Members of Move On: More than 2,000,000

Total Attendance at Vote for Change Concerts: An estimated 280,000

Total Union Members in U.S.: Around 16,000,000

Total Number of People Who Have Seen "Fahrenheit 9/11", Over 50 million

Total Number of You Reading This: Perhaps 10 million or more

The days of trying to move the Democratic Party to the right are over. We lost a very close election (a one-state difference) by running the #1 liberal in the Senate. Not bad. The country is shifting in our direction, not to the right. But the country was attacked and people were scared. They were manipulated with fear. And America has never thrown a sitting president out during wartime. That's the facts. Oh, and our candidate could have run a better campaign (but we'll have that discussion another day).

In the meantime, while we reflect on what went wrong, I would like to pass on to you an essay that a friend who works with abuse victims sent to me. It was written by a woman who has spent years working as an advocate for victims of domestic abuse and she sees many parallels between her work and the reaction of many Democrats to last month's election. Her name is Mel Giles and here is what she had to say.

Watch Dan Rather apologize for not getting his facts straight, humiliated before the eyes of America, voluntarily undermining his credibility and career of over thirty years. Observe Donna Brazille squirm as she is ridiculed by Bay Buchanan, and pronounced irrelevant and nearly non-existent. Listen as Donna and Nancy Pelosi and Senator Charles Schumer take to the airwaves saying that they have to go back to the drawing board and learn from their mistakes and try to be better, more likable, more appealing, have a stronger message, speak to morality. Watch them awkwardly quote the bible, trying to speak the 'new' language of America. Surf the blogs, and read the comments of dismayed, discombobulated, confused individuals trying to figure out what they did wrong. Hear the cacophony of voices, crying out, "Why did they beat me?"

And then ask anyone who has ever worked in a domestic violence shelter if they have heard this before. They will tell you: Every single day.

The answer is quite simple. They beat us because they are abusers. We can call it hate. We can call it fear. We can say it is unfair. But we are looped into the cycle of violence, and we need to start calling the dominating side what they are: abusive. And we need to recognize that we are the victims of verbal, mental, and even, in the case of Iraq, physical violence.

As victims we can't stop asking ourselves what we did wrong. We can't seem to grasp that they will keep hitting us and beating us as long as we keep sticking around and asking ourselves what we are doing to deserve the beating.

Listen to George Bush say that the will of God excuses his behavior. Listen, as he refuses to take responsibility, or express remorse, or even once, admit a mistake. Watch him strut, and tell us that he will only work with those who agree with him, and that each of us is only allowed one question (soon, it will be none at all; abusers hit hard when questioned; the press corps can tell you that). See him surround himself with only those who pledge oaths of allegiance. Hear him tell us that if we will only listen and do as he says and agree with his every utterance, all will go well for us (it won't; we will never be worthy).

And watch the Democratic Party leadership walk on eggshells, try to meet him, please him, wash the windows better, get out that spot, distance themselves from gays and civil rights. See the Democrats cry for the attention and affection and approval of the President and his followers. Watch us squirm. Watch us descend into a world of crazy-making, where logic does not work and the other side tells us we are nuts when we rely on facts. A world where, worst of all, we begin to believe we are crazy.

How to break free? Again, the answer is quite simple.

First, you must admit you are a victim. Then, you must declare the state of affairs unacceptable. Next, you must promise to protect yourself and everyone around you that is being victimized. You don't do this by responding to their demands, or becoming more like them, or engaging in logical conversation, or trying to persuade them that you are right. You also don't do this by going catatonic and resigned, by closing up your ears and eyes and covering your head and submitting to the blows, figuring its over faster and hurts less if you don't resist and fight back.

Instead, you walk away. You find other folks like yourself, 57 million of them, who are hurting, broken, and beating themselves up. You tell them what you've learned, and that you aren't going to take it anymore. You stand tall, with 57 million people at your side and behind you, and you look right into the eyes of the abuser and you tell him to go to hell. Then you walk out the door, taking the kids and gays and minorities with you, and you start a new life. The new life is hard. But it's better than the abuse.

We have a mandate to be as radical and liberal and steadfast as we need to be. The progressive beliefs and social justice we stand for, our core, must not be altered. We are 57 million strong. We are building from the bottom up. We are meeting, on the net, in church basements, at work, in small groups, and right now, we are crying, because we are trying to break free and we don't know how.

Any battered woman in America, any oppressed person around the globe who has defied her oppressor will tell you this: There is nothing wrong with you. You are in good company. You are safe. You are not alone. You are strong. You must change only one thing: Stop responding to the abuser.

Don't let him dictate the terms or frame the debate (he'll win, not because he's right, but because force works). Sure, we can build a better grassroots campaign, cultivate and raise up better leaders, reform the election system to make it fail-proof, stick to our message, learn from the strategy of the other side. But we absolutely must dispense with the notion that we are weak, godless, cowardly, disorganized, crazy, too liberal, naive, amoral, "loose," irrelevant, outmoded, stupid and soon to be extinct. We have the mandate of the world to back us, and the legacy of oppressed people throughout history.

Even if you do everything right, they'll hit you anyway. Look at the poor souls who voted for this nonsense. They are working for six dollars an hour if they are working at all, their children are dying overseas and suffering from lack of health care and a depleted environment and a shoddy education.

And they don't even know they are being hit.

How true. And that is our challenge over the next couple of years; to hold out our hand to those being hit the hardest and help them leave behind a party that only seeks to keep beating them, their children, and the kid next door who's on his way to Iraq.


Michael Moore
0 Replies
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 08:15 pm
Good ol' Micheal Moore. Keeping the liberal ideas of "victimhood" at the forefront of the conversation. Poor guy. I almost feel bad for him. Almost.
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Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 08:20 pm
He sounds like a whiney 2-year-old. Think he'll ever grow up?
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Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 08:24 pm
lol, I hope not.
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Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 10:42 pm
If Moore, Dean, Gore, Pelosi, Brazille, and the like truly are the flagbearers of the Democratic Party's effort to regain relevance, the future is bright indeed for The Republican Party.
0 Replies
Walter Hinteler
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 11:13 am
"Just 16 percent of those who voted for George W. Bush said there was 'ever a time' when they thought they would vote for John Kerry. And 15 percent of Kerry voters said there was 'ever a time' when they thought they would vote for Bush. Put another way, 84 percent of Bush voters and 85 percent of Kerry voters said they never thought they would vote for the other candidate."

PDF-file from National Annenberg Election Survey 2004:

Few American Voters Ever Change Their Minds
0 Replies
cicerone imposter
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2005 12:30 pm
Walter, The reason the cross-overs happened during the last election is obvious; both candidates were really, really, bad - even though the majority stuck with their own party. Most do not change their votes to the "other" candidate from election to election, because most do not study who the candidates are or what their past voting records are in government. They blindly vote party line over and over and over...
0 Replies

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