Let's talk about replacing GWBush in 2004.

There is no doubt in my mind that both sides complain about the other when it involves behavior identical to the behavior they have just been chuckling about when they did it. This seems like fair politics to me. My objection is the wish and successful attempt to make the church and state one and the same. This is a violation of the Constitution and it's a gross one. And folks, these guys are succeeding. They're getting away with it. And if they win this next round, we'll all be able to see it clearly, but then, I fear, it will be too late. It will take decades to change it.

There really is nothing there to prohibit government from permitting religious persons or entities from participating in govermental programs, processes, or organs; it merely prohibits government from establishing a religion or from preventing religionists from exercizing their beliefs. The contemporary popular concept of "Separation of Church FROM State" is a fiction unsupported by fact, legal precedent, or history. The State may neither mandate nor proscribe a religion. There is no provision requiring the State to discriminate blanketly against religion and/or religionists, a clearly preposterous notion put forth only comparatively recently by those who perceive The Constitution as written inconvenient to their own agenda, reading into it much which plainly is not there.

Timber
That argument has been put forward over and over and will not wash. It is not the wording of the amendment but how it has been interpreted that is the law of the land.

Here's you chance to make history, bid it up

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I'll have my head shaved when GWBush is taken away in handcuffs.

Things certainly look bleak for the barbering trade.


Au, I agree with your observation, with the caveat that is contemporary interpretation ... it has not been always thus, nor must necessarily it remain so. It is a matter of interpretation.

TIMBER
I for one hope it remains as the law of the land. That is one of the reasons I am so vehemently against Bush. His attempts to blur that line between church and state. Religion belongs in houses of worship and in the home and has no business in government.

You both may have to wait a long time. Bush will win a second term and Arnold will win in California.

Remarkable the contortions some go through to argue that Arnold's Hollywood escapades were inexcusable, but Bill Clinton's were somehow OK (perhaps, as Lola suggests, because he gives good head.) Forcible rape in Arkansas, and groping a woman in the oval office who was visiting seeking a favor following her husband's suicide both seem a bit more than has been laid on Arnold. Furthermore, he didn't lie about it.

Cicerone bemoans the money spent in Iraq and suggests it would be better spent on education and medicaL care here in the States. The fact is that more money in a dysfunctional educational system will merely cause more waste and further empower the failed institutions that have created the problem.

The Washington DC school system student population dripped this year from 79,000 to 64,000 while its operating budget rose 9.3%. It already had the highest per capita student cost in the nation, though its performance metrics put it at the bottom. No with the continuing drop in student load and continuing rise in budgets the percapita cost will increase another 35% ! The drop is occurring as parents, both black and white take their children out of these schools seeking a better education for their kids. Meanwhile the President of the Washington Teachers Union and two of her assistants are under indictment for embezzling over $500,000 from the union. Yesterday the Justice Department announced it is investigating certain Federal Education Department officials for complicity with these same persons in 1998 in stealing over $1,000,000 in Federal school funds. The headquarters of the DC School Administration has well over a thousand employees. Add to them other non teaching staff in the schools and you get a total much larger than the total number of teachers in the system. In 1997 the Federal Government took over management of the school maintenance operation of the DC public school system, after discovering gross incidents of structural disrepair, firemains that didn't work, exposed asbestos insulation that was supposedly removed decades ago. The fix it job was given to the Corps of Engineers of the Army using monies taken from the school system plus some special Federal grants. My company performed a fairly large part of the design, construction, and safety inspection work under contracts with the Corps. It took two years to finish the work. The total cost was equal only to about three years of the school district's budget for maintenance. It makes one wonder what that money had been used for during the previous 20 years while the system fell into decay.

The Administration, supported by the Mayor of Washington, is working hard to authorize a voucher program for the district to shock the system into reform.. It is being blocked by a coalition of Democrats and members of the education establishment who piously say they are concerned only about protecting the public system they hold so dear.

george, You probably don't understand how our government runs our schools. They have federal mandates that requires our schools to meet very subjective standards, but they do not provide the funding for those standards. They keep demanding things without providing the money. You ever run a small business? Well, in California, the state legislature is now working on requiring small businesses to provide health insurance for their employees. Do you know how expensive health insurance is? Maybe not.

You see, I belive that our country should provide health insurance to all of our citizens. That 150 billion being spent in Iraq would have accomplished that.

Cicerone,Well I do run a business with about 500 employees and about $100 million/year in net revenue. And I did just close our Concord CA office, laying off about 40 people and moving about 6 key ones to Fallon Nev (south of Reno) as a nucleus to restart there. The reason was the California effect on insurance costs, particularly workers comp, as well as location cost and the problem of paying or otherwise motivating employees faced with California taxes (9.3% on income over 39K/year and 8+% on sales) and a failed school system.

While Federal mandates undoubtedly do create some problems, my experience is that it is the educational establishment itself, state and local bureaucracies, teachers unions, the NEA, and the text book publishers in cahoots with them to replace texts every couple of years, that are the real problem. Their ability to spend more and accomplish less has been amply proven. Giving THEM more money will merely do more harm. The system must be given the shock of real competition to reform itself. It cannot be helped otherwise.

george, I also believe in competition and merit. That you closed your Concord office to move to Nevada speaks volumes about government mandates, and their inability to fix these problems as soon as they occur. I think we agree more than we disagree, but schools in California, especially in our area, is failing because starting salaries for teachers in our area (Santa Clara County) is $35,000. An 'average' house costs $500,000. Our schools need money just to retain and hire teachers. The $35,000 starting salary just isn't going to cut it, and our schools and students will suffer more and more.

Cicerone,

I agree and understand. We both know the story of prop 13. A lax state government and a corrupt, non-performing education establishment ran the costs, and the attendant property tax so high they created a taxpayer's revolt in prop. 13.

What lessons have they learned from this experience? The record suggests that since Dukemajan they have learned very little indeed. Grey Davis has created enormous future liabilities for the state in approving gross sweetheart deals with state employees unions - prison guards can retire with full benefits at age 50 (this union is among his principal contributors); CALTRANS is protected from engineering competition from a private sector that turns in better work for less than half the cost (and makes money doing it); the growth of state government has proceeded at a pace far greater than either the growth in population or of state domestic product. State tort laws make it very risky to run a business in California. The tax and school situations make it very hard to attract employees at wage rates that prevail in other states.

georgeob wrote:


george,

My point was not about whether Bill Clinton'sscapades were excusable or not. My point was about the victimization of women charge. It sound like his "victims" were more than willing. Paula Jones returned to her work after her encounter with Clinton and told her fellow worker that she might become Bill Clinton's girl friend. I don't know about the rape charge, I think it was never documented (I'll look into it and see what I can find on it and get back to you) and Kathleen Wiley may well have been a set up, like Linda Tripp obviously was. In any case, we don't know what happened between Clinton and any of these women for sure. It's their word against his. In any case, Gennifer Flowers doesn't sound like a victim to me. This has nothing to do with whether the dear man gave good head or not. Gennifer at least seems to think he was interested in pleasing women, a trait of an excellent lover. And I might point out to you as well, that good head is the least of what Bill Clinton was apparently able to provide for Gennifer. She certainly seemed to enjoy it for twelve years. But whether he's good sexually or not is not the point at all. The point is did he victimize women. You have your opinion and I have mine. I've seen no account that appears to indicate that he did. You may object to his philandering, it's clear that he had a lot of sex with a lot of women, sometimes carrying on sexual relationships with as many as 5 women at a time. But that is not the issue I was addressing.

My point is that it's silly to compare Arnold to Bill in the morality category. They both have been fairly free in the way they've lived. They clearly live by their own set of rules (as do most people whether they acknowledge it or not.) So comparisons are useless. My point is that it's the hypocrisy that's the issue. Bill Bennett and now good ole Rush, (Mr. Sensitivity himself), and the others before and those who will be revealed in the future, are all hypocrites. They expect others to live by the absolute letter of the law but don't for some reason expect it of themselves. Thank god I've rarely claimed to be perfect as some of these poor souls have done. I'm guilty of lots of indiscretions at one point in my life or another, including hypocrisy (on this one, however, I got better). :wink: But it's the right-wing's claim to purity that I find reprehendsible.

The real issue for me is the separation of church and state. It's funny how so many right-wing fundamentalists are prideful about their literal, concrete interpretation of the bible. How much they love the letter of the law. But when it comes to the Constitution, or at least this particular part of the Constitution, they all of a sudden can see nuance, and appeal to history and the read-between-the-line meaning. Religious education and practices belongs in the home and place of worship. In our public schools, government buildings and laws, there is no fair way to include religion. People are supposed to be as free as possible to believe as they choose.

And about the economy.......... the numbers are being manipulated. Those people who have been looking for work for too long have been dropped from the statistics. The government claims that since it's taking so long, they must not be trying hard enough. In any case, it's also true that I know no business (including my own) in which everyone has not had to make the choice between having their salary cut in half or losing their job to someone who will be glad to work for that amount. The economy sucks right now, and it's only going to get worse as long as GWBush continues to play God in the WH.

Yeah, I'm with you Lola. So many puritans out there, I'm surprised we have so many problems in this country. I've also had my personal indiscretions too, but I've never "groped" any woman. That was "out of bounds" in my books. But as I've said before, sexual freedoms today doesn't compare to when we were teenagers. We still lived by some Victorian ideals back then. I think most mid-teens have had a sexual experience today.

Yes, c.i., it's true. I was babysitting on a Sunday afternoon when I was a teen ager of about 15 and read in a magazine about the new birth control pill. I was fascinated and very pleased. But it was indeed Victorianville during my high school days. Later when we went to college, we all had a really good time. Naive of us to believe anti-biotics could fix everything, but I must admit that it was a great ride while it lasted. In the mean time, I agree, teen agers today have a much more balanced opportunity and attitude about sex. I only hope we'll be able to continue our sexual development and not take steps backward into Victorian times again. Victorian attitudes constitute a true false economy, IMO.

How, in the name of all that is sane, could anyone seriously consider Arnold as the man for this job??

He has no CV to suggest he can do it...nothing. And he's so clearly a narcissist with an ego the size of Philadelphia.

Doomed. You guys are doomed.

If we're doomed, Blatham, so are you.

You know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.