14
   

Why do so many Americans want socialism (and support Bernie Sanders' Idealism)?

 
 
Real Music
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jul, 2016 04:33 pm
0 Replies
 
Real Music
 
  3  
Reply Tue 26 Jul, 2016 04:43 pm
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  4  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2016 09:04 am
@Angelgz2,
How does an ID prevent someone from voting if they are not eligible? All an ID does is confirm that the person registered to vote is the person voting.

If you are concerned about non citizens voting then you need only restrict their ability to register by requiring citizenship at that time. But that is not what voter ID laws do.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  4  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2016 09:11 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
ID requirements will eliminate voting by people who are not authorized to vote by virtue of their status here. It may also eliminate others who don't bother to get IDs. Who they are and why they don't bother to do so is something that neither you nor I really know.

Too bad the courts see through that argument. Anyone with any logic can see through it.

1. Voter ID laws don't restrict people from registering but only confirm the registered person is the same one voting.
2. Not bothering to get an ID? That is clearly an argument to prevent a certain group from voting. Those that have more difficulty because of financial burdens will clearly have more difficulty getting an ID. This doesn't fall on people that don't bother to get an ID. It falls on people that are unable to get one often through no fault of their own such as not being able to acquire a birth certificate. The courts certainly saw this in the ruling on Texas that has hoops that only the well off can easily jump through.
3. Actually, we do know why they don't get IDs. We have statistical and anecdotal evidence saying the poor have more difficulty.
4. Your solution is nothing but a solution (prevent poor from voting) in search of an excuse (pretending there is voting fraud when there isn't.)
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2016 09:44 am
@parados,
More illogical nonsense from a major purveyor of it. There are few real economic barriers to getting a drivers license or other acceptable forms of ID. Moreover, any difficulties that do exist in getting them can readily be eliminated with far fewer adverse side effects than those that attend abandoning the prevention of those not authorized to vote in our political process. That Democrat advocates don't address these other means is powerfully suggestrive that their motivations may well include vestiges of the voting fraud that have characterized the actions of corrupt Democrat political machines such as that in Chicago for generations.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2016 01:22 pm
@parados,
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/02/02/3745296/major-voter-id-study/

Quote:
Actually, we do know why they don't get IDs. We have statistical and anecdotal evidence saying the poor have more difficulty.
0 Replies
 
Angelgz2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2016 08:01 am
@Blickers,
Quote:
And you weren't even talking about abortion, you were objecting to contraception.


Not correct. I am not against contraception and I don't even want to go into all that morality thing because morality is relative. I am against PAYING for contraceptives for those people that COULDN'T afford it. There's not restricting women's freedom here. It is THEIR choice to have unprotected sex and become pregnant, knowing they couldn't afford a baby, and therefore, must bear the burden of their own mistakes. We, as a society, should not encourage irresponsible behavior, but rather to educate and correct those behavior. Free contraceptives and abortion (for that matter), encourages irresponsible behavior. That's all I am saying.
0 Replies
 
Angelgz2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2016 08:06 am
@Blickers,
Quote:
There are traditional forms of identification besides the drivers license and state ID, which is frequently difficult to get.


No they are not difficult to get. I just told you that a passport ID card that's suffice to prove your citizenship cost $30 to get and you can have it in a few days time. And no, I am not playing coy. If I don't like opinions from the other side, I wouldn't be talking to you.
0 Replies
 
Angelgz2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2016 08:18 am
@parados,
Quote:
It falls on people that are unable to get one often through no fault of their own such as not being able to acquire a birth certificate


How can any legal citizens of America couldn't get a birth certificate? I just got 2 copies from my county office for $20. Then I used one of them to get a passport card which cost $30 or so. What's so hard about this? I did that all in one day. There are many things that are defined as "rights" in our constitution, but if someone can't exercise that right because of bad choices in his/her life, that's nobody else's fault but his/her own.

By your logic you can argue we have the constitutional right to bear firearms but it's only for the "rich" because guns costs a few hundred bucks and poor people can't afford them, so we should give poor people choice of free guns so they can exercise that "same right"?

I've been voting for YEARS by mail and never had to stand in lines whatsoever. What's so hard about that really. I go to my local DMV, register to vote, show my IDs, and voila, the ballets come in my mailbox. I bubble them and drop them in the mailbox. No lines, no hassle, no waiting. In my view people who wait to the last minute to do something then they must not enjoy doing it. If they don't enjoy doing it, then they probably shouldn't be doing it.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2016 08:33 am
@Angelgz2,
Mail-in ballots are going to be the next thing to go. Think of the possibility for voter fraud there!!

Who knows if someone is really filling out their own ballot. What if it's stolen in the mailbox and someone else sends it in? What if a husbands ballot is filled out by his wife and sent in?

Mail-in voting likely has more fraud than in-person voting, by orders of magnitude.
Angelgz2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jul, 2016 02:20 pm
@maporsche,
Code:Who knows if someone is really filling out their own ballot. What if it's stolen in the mailbox and someone else sends it in? What if a husbands ballot is filled out by his wife and sent in?


This is actually okay. The ballot says on it you can have someone fill it in for you and signs it as your agent. I've done that a few times letting my dad, who shares the same political view as I, vote on my behave and sign as my agent when I am too busy. If you have to worry about your wife secretly stealing your ballot and vote against you then all I have to say is "you married the wrong woman bro!".

No one else steals my Ballots man. Who'd be stupid enough to check my mailbox every day just in hope they can steal my Ballot? They gotta be pretty stupid because they don't even know when it would be mailed. If someone truly takes the time to register for a mail-in ballot, you know they do want to vote and like myself they'll be checking for that ballot and if it doesn't come, an alarm will sound.

On a side note, I posted something on a separate forum saying that there's no way you can really know anything. Your argument for unfair voting could be extend to my question back then exactly, that is, "how do you know your vote has been counted?" For all I know they could've already determined who's going to be the next president. The "illuminatis" or whatever super-rich secret society you call them, has already "bribed" the government to have this certain someone win. I said unless you can see all the votes LIVE on the internet or some public channel, there's no way to truly know if we live in a democracy. So why suppress voters at all? This is much easier to do than spending all that effort to suppress voting -- just have a fake election. This just shows how far these "theories" about our government can be stretched.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jul, 2016 03:52 pm
@Angelgz2,
Anyone who goes through the trouble of stealing a ballot from a private mailbox has some gray matter missing from his/her brain. That in it of itself is illegal. It's $250,000 and prison time.

https://www.reference.com/government-politics/penalty-stealing-mail-f236abadd3ee08d3
0 Replies
 
Senter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Aug, 2017 10:22 pm
@Angelgz2,
Capitalism has run its course. It is now creating more problems that it cannot solve. The problem is the private ownership of production for profit and the decline of demand to support the system.

Capitalism had the job of improving life for the people and their standard of living, plus developing production, plus developing technology, and it rewarded with great wealth some who were instrumental in harnessing the power of capitalism to do all this and to raise the standard of living of people/workers. As a system suited to that task, it cannot be beat. But when the development of productive capacity and raising the standard of living of people nears completion, capitalism begins to fail.

By the 1970s capitalism in the US had retained its ability to produce "things" and to create wealth for a few, but at that point the standard of living of the people began to slip. In order to maintain it and keep it growing, women began going back to work in businesses. They developed careers. They increased family income. They bought a second car because two cars were needed with two people working. They sent the kids to college which delayed the addition of their earned income to the family because they could with mom working. So the whole reason their standard of living kept improving was because of two-income families to fund it. But employers saw the opportunity to extract a bit more from workers who continued to do well, and incomes began to stagnate while the rich got richer.

People were gradually seeing their buying power slide, so banks stepped in to make a killing while providing a temporary appearance of "benefit" to help the standard of living keep on advancing: the credit card was popularized. It was advertised constantly. And debt grew as the standard of living kept up. Then the debt bubble burst in 2008 - 2009.

So back in the 1970s capitalism had, in fact, reached the end of its utility and useful life for the people. The malaise under Nixon, Ford, and Carter was due to it failing and then mom went to work and things picked up a bit. Since then wages have stagnated and the standard of living did worse and worse and worse. We have not fully recovered from the Big Recession in 2009 yet, but a new major crash is about to happen while we're still "down" economically. Previously we would fully recover from a recession, have a few good years, and then the next recession would hit. This time there is no recovery for the people. Capitalism is only worsening life now, except for the top few.

The solution to the problem is one of changing the system of private ownership of production for private profit. And that is where socialism comes in. For an example of a great socialist business, investigate the Mondragon Corporation in Spain.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Aug, 2017 04:17 pm
@Senter,
You are suffering from myopia. Capitalism is the best economic system, because everybody has equal opportunity to create wealth. It's about supply and demand; the free flow of trade. Did you study Economics? If you haven't, study Econ 101, Macroeconomics and Microeconomics. They'll open your eyes and mind about the world we live in.

You wrote,
Quote:
Previously we would fully recover from a recession, have a few good years, and then the next recession would hit. This time there is no recovery for the people. Capitalism is only worsening life now, except for the top few.


Our unemployment is now at 4.5%. To many expert economists, that's considered full employment. Businesses are looking for workers, but many do not have the right kind of education. When you say, "there is no recover for the people," who are you talking about? The agricultural industry in California rely on Mexican labor to work in our fields, and to harvest our foods. Trump wants to build a wall, and create problems for the farmers of California. On the other side of the scale, the people with the right kind of education can find jobs that start at over $100,000 a year in Silicon Valley where we live. High tech companies can't find enough Americans with the right kind of education, so they're recruiting hi tech workers from India, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and other countries.

I just looked it up, and according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the unemployment rate is 4.3% as of last month.
Senter
 
  4  
Reply Thu 10 Aug, 2017 10:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Instead of relying on ready-made pro-capitalist slogans, why not take points I posted and discuss them? Too difficult? You start with a personal attack and go on to simply/suggest I'm not educated and just don't know any better. Those are the tricks of someone who has no real answers and so is trying to hide while throwing stones.

Full recovery? The middle class has shrunk. Those in poverty have increased in numbers. Part-time jobs replaced many full time jobs because employers don't have to provide benefits for part time workers. For the last 30 years productivity has increase greatly but nearly all the new income it generated went to the top 5% and the rest have seen virtually no increase in their real wages. Higher education is far more expensive and business doesn't care because they get their workers from overseas at a lower cost. More people have to work until they're 70 or more because pensions are almost non-existent and people can't save enough to fund their own retirement. (I'm one of the few, last, lucky ones.) We have increased worries about the cost of healthcare while the rest of the world does much better than we are doing with our private profit system.

Bernie Sanders advocates a truncated, substitute "socialism" that isn't really socialism. But it's a stop-gap alternative that offers some temporary benefit without solving the underlying problem.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 04:14 pm
@Senter,
You wrote
Quote:
So back in the 1970s capitalism had, in fact, reached the end of its utility and useful life for the people.


Capitalism never reaches the end of its utility. Did you ever study Econ 101?

Simply put, capitalism encourages development and competition. Socialism kills it.

https://quillpigz.wordpress.com/2015/08/26/5-quick-reasons-why-socialism-fails/
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 04:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Here's a list of per capita GDP by country. The USA is the first country with the mix of demographics and population on that is list. The USA has citizens from all around the world. We represent less than 5% of the world population, but we are the richest in this world. It's based on our freedoms.
World Factbook Title


ABOUT
REFERENCES
APPENDICES
FAQs
CONTACT


COUNTRY COMPARISON :: GDP - PER CAPITA (PPP)
GDP - per capita (PPP) compares GDP on a purchasing power parity basis divided by population as of 1 July for the same year.
Download
RANK COUNTRY GDP - PER CAPITA (PPP) DATE OF INFORMATION
1 LIECHTENSTEIN $139,100 2009 EST.
2 QATAR $129,700 2016 EST.
3 MONACO $115,700 2015 EST.
4 LUXEMBOURG $102,000 2016 EST.
5 FALKLAND ISLANDS (ISLAS MALVINAS) $96,200 2012 EST.
6 MACAU $96,100 2016 EST.
7 SINGAPORE $87,100 2016 EST.
8 BERMUDA $85,700 2013 EST.
9 ISLE OF MAN $84,600 2014 EST.
10 BRUNEI $79,700 2016 EST.
11 KUWAIT $71,300 2016 EST.
12 IRELAND $69,400 2016 EST.
13 NORWAY $69,300 2016 EST.
14 UNITED ARAB EMIRATES $67,700 2016 EST.
15 SINT MAARTEN $66,800 2014 EST.
16 SAN MARINO $65,300 2016 EST.
17 GIBRALTAR $61,700 2014 EST.
18 SWITZERLAND $59,400 2016 EST.
19 HONG KONG $58,100 2016 EST.
20 UNITED STATES $57,300 2016 EST.
0 Replies
 
Senter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Aug, 2017 06:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Your pro-capitalist dogma which was invented to support capitalism and promoted by capitalist ideologues is biased. You value "Capitalist Econ 101" so you have nothing to say about it's disadvantages nor its growing list of failures. In fact you appear to be blind to them. I'll bet you will even claim there's no such thing as "capitalist economics" and it's all just "economics."

The thread is about "Why do so many Americans want socialism" and that's why I'm here. You're not.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sat 12 Aug, 2017 07:06 pm
@Senter,
It's biased only to people ignorant about Economics. Capitalism is not a dogma, it's a theory on economics.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Aug, 2017 07:16 pm
@Senter,
It's obvious you have never studied Economics. Did you even go to college? Please identify for us any socialist society that has a successful economy?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/07/25/us-sanctions-have-taken-a-big-bite-out-of-russias-economy.html
 

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