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Why do so many Americans want socialism (and support Bernie Sanders' Idealism)?

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 09:23 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Do you like your town's socialist garbage pick up, Finn?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 10:21 am
Everyone pays taxes - no matter what country you work/live in. European countries feel that "no citizen left behind" means exactly that. Should you need financial assistance during your lifetime for one reason or another, the government steps in and helps you to get back on your feet. Reasonable healthcare fees and preventive healthcare benefits a nation's workforce and everyone's golden years.

In the US, preventive healthcare is a myth. People don't have regular physicals and rather pop pills and carry on. A neglected body can't function properly! I found that geriatrics in the United States is in worse condition than in any other industrialized nation, thus resulting in added Medicare funding.

Public schools are free, yes, but they suck it to you in college. The results we see on a daily basis - many people can't afford college and won't go - they vote for Trump to make America great again. Never mind asking him how he'll achieve that.

Bernie Sanders' idealism? It's a proven system in so many countries and successful too, I might add. "You get what you pay for" is an often used idiom, yet what we (US) pay for with our tax Dollar, we'll never receive due to horrendous military spending.

By the way, George O'B : Russia was a highly centralized entity whose one and only leading party controlled the entire country. It was a communistic regime and never achieved the principles of Marx. . Cuba suffered from embargo sanctions, initiated by the U.S. and kept up for 55 years. Does anyone still remember why? Hardly! Don't add Venezuela and Brazil into this equation, their initial living standard are not comparable to the US, Canada or Europe for that matter.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 10:57 am
@CalamityJane,
But we don't have "Free breakfast" like you've got in the USA in hotels (here, it is included in the price for the overnight stay).
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 11:35 am
I chose to preface my list with the word free because it sticks in the craw of so, so many people. And they always take the bait.
Of course I pay taxes. Of course none of the things I listed are "free". Of course most people don't use all the services thusly not getting all the benefits.
But... those services are there and even if I don't benefit from them directly, overall my society is better served when people share in the cost and no doubt, the services provided to those that need it.
Many of the things on the list were bought and paid for long before I was a twinkle, but we still benefit from them. Some are ongoing services, repairs or upgrades which are reasonable uses of tax dollars. Some things in the list are without a doubt a major piss off to some people, but hey, if you live in a civilized society there are times you have to suck it up and hold your nose.
In the end, after I pay income taxes, property taxes, GST, unemployment insurance, pension etc. I rarely get stuck with another bill if or when I use anything from the list, or if I do, I'm aware that it will happen before hand, and I won't be denied based on pre-existing conditions or if I have a uterus or not.

So by all means, quibble over a word. Argue about the tree and miss the forest...
Socialism - Canada is not afraid of a word or a concept that the most countries use in part, whether they admit or not.



CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 11:59 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Our hotels are cheaper than in Germany.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 12:10 pm
@CalamityJane,
True.

These damisch Bavarians are the Texans of Europe ... Wink
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 12:18 pm
@Ceili,
Exactly, Ceili !
While Americans still scream "we are the greatest nation in the world" - just about every civilized and industrious nation has surpassed them. I love living in the United States, but there is so much room for improvements and every tax payer should be able to receive benefits should they need it. That's why we pay taxes, folks, not to support a massive military force that gets us nowhere.

Which war was successfully fought since WWII? None!! Vietnam was a disaster, Golf war, Afghanistan, Iraq war - all disastrous. Of course, we could take Panama by surprise by invading their country and take Manuel Noriega to an US prison.
---------

"America has invaded 70 countries since its 4th of July Independence Day in 1776. The World, including ordinary Americans (1 million of whom die preventably each year), must shake off the shackles of endless American One Percenter warmongering, imperialism and mendacity. The World must make the Fourth of July Independence from America Day. Tell everyone you can. " (Dr. Gideon Polya)

Something to be proud of, eh? Happy 4th of July!
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 12:21 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

By the way, George O'B : Russia was a highly centralized entity whose one and only leading party controlled the entire country. It was a communistic regime and never achieved the principles of Marx. . Cuba suffered from embargo sanctions, initiated by the U.S. and kept up for 55 years. Does anyone still remember why? Hardly! Don't add Venezuela and Brazil into this equation, their initial living standard are not comparable to the US, Canada or Europe for that matter.

I think you are evading the central issues here Calamity.

The USSR was indeed a hightly centralized authoritarian state. The socialism it imposed reduced the rate of economic growth and even industralization that prevasiled in Tsarist Russia before WWI and ended up decades later in stagnation. By 1965 Russia wasn an importer of even foodstuffs - a major export during Tsarist times. The Soviet satellites in Eastern Europe recovered only slightly from the ravages of WWII and then enjoyed very rapid economic growth after the chains of socialism were removed.

While the economies of Brazil and Venezuela aren't directly comparable to those of Europe or the US, they are doing far less well (a serious understatement in the case of Venezuela) now under authortarian socialist ( only partly so in the case of Brazil) regimes than they did previously under free market conditions. Indeed most economic activity in Venezuela has collapsed. Even their petroleum production is down by almost half under their corrupt socialist system.

The US embargo is often deceptively cited as a reason for Cuba's poverty. The fact is that Cuba under Castro's rule produces less of everything than it did before its unfortunate revolution. They have no money with which to buy anything here. There were good reasons for establishing the embargo and there are good reasons for sustaining it until the grip of the Castros is finally gone from that unfortunate country.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 01:03 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Tangent - On my first of a few trips to Italy (I know it's not Germany), we visited friends of ours in Firenze (an american friend and her later ital husband, who owned several successful businesses there, including breakfast and bar concessions - and she let me know you can ask to not have the "breakfast" included in your room rate. Me, I like to get outdoors and walk to pasticerias...

I don't know if that is still true, but once I caught on, then and in others of my trips, I insisted on no breakfast, which I remember as a bit expensive in the first place. The room rate diminished.

Ok, back to free air and socialism..
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 01:04 pm
@georgeob1,
Let's start with Cuba, George! The US had oil refineries stationed in Cuba and they were nationalized by Cuba after the US stopped the import of sugar by 95 per cent and stopped supplying Cuba with oil. Why did Eisenhower stop the import of sugar from Cuba? Because the CIA and Pentagon was convinced that the Castro Regime has to be eliminated and Eisenhower was for it.

You don't differentiate between Socialism and Communism - both Cuba and former Russia were under communistic regime. Castro expropriated sugar plants and private industry. Russia did the same in a much larger scale.
Socialism is a natural derivative of capitalism and communism was built on socialistic foundations that extended to no private ownership and everyone was the same - class equality. Of course, reality has shown us that communism is only practiced in theory.

Yet, America was paranoid about communism (J.Edgar Hoover) and was convinced that Cuba's communistic regime will take over South America and from there American invasions have begun.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 01:10 pm
@georgeob1,
The so called socialistic health care system pays $9,000 dollars per person while the Europians pay about $4,500 for better health care .Why? Because our socialistic health care is actually controlled by the capitalistic system that adds the extra money we all pay for the holders of stocks and bonds. We dont have a socialistic health care program. We have a capitalistic national health care system because it was the only way congress would pass one. Now the republicans are trying their damdest to take over Social Security so they can get their 20% of that too. So if you want another screwing vote republican, or Bernie.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 02:34 pm
@RABEL222,
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/debate-over-medicare-social-security-other-federal-benefits-divides-gop/2015/11/04/166619a8-824e-11e5-a7ca-6ab6ec20f839_story.html
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 03:16 pm
@CalamityJane,
I think you are confused here. Cuba nationalized all private property, farms homes, stores, restaurants markets and oil refineries as part od a deliberate systematic policy.. That action had nothing to do with our restrictions on Cuban imports or even the embargo. Boith of these actions were instead retaliation for the placement of Soviet ballistic missiles oin the island. (The U.S, Sugar industry also played its part).

As you wrote, communism has been a theoretial fantasy that authoritarian socialist regimes like the USSR, its European Satellites, Cuba and recently Venezuela hold out to rationalize the poverty and loss of freedon they actually deliver.

Socialisn is in no way a "natural derivative" of capitalism. Most western states operate largely capitalist democratic systems with significant elements of socialism or social welfare systems within them. Overall their economic performance usually involves a negative correleation with the degree of socialism involved.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 04:05 pm
@georgeob1,
Not all property. Alejandro Robaina owned the largest tobacco farm in Cuba, and he refused Castro to make his farm into a commune and kept it private. As a matter of fact, I know his grandson, Hiroshi Robaina who now owns and runs the farm. I also know Carlos Robaina, Hiroshi's father who owns a restaurant in Havana.
Castro awarded Alejandro Robaina with an award.
http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatures/show/id/Legendary-Cuban-Farmer-Alejandro-Robaina-Dies_3871
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 04:06 pm
@georgeob1,
That's simply not true, George. The embargo was initiated by Eisenhower, and the reason was that Castro took office in 1959 and nationalized the sugar fields/production and oil refineries that were by then largely in US hands. In 1959 the US owned 60 % of the sugar industry and 100 % of the oil refineries. The monetary compensation offered by Castro to US investors was not enough and when the 7 mill. tons of sugar import was rejected by the US, the Soviets took it and they supplied the oil to Cuba as well.

Due to the relationship between Cuba and Russia (out of necessity) and while the US considered themselves in a "cold war" with Russia, the Embargo was officially implemented by Kennedy - after he got about 1200 Cuban cigars out beforehand. After the Embargo, when the Soviets wanted to station their missils and nuclear weapon in Cuba, the US (Kennedy) signed the "trading with the enemy act" and tightened the embargo and restricted travel to Cuba.

You know as well as I do that the embargo was the culprit that made Cuba poor. Amnesty International has condemned the US for it and despite all attempts to assassinate Castro by the CIA through poisoned milk, exploding cigars and so on - I believe there were close to 7 attempts - it was clear that the US was against the Cuban regime/Castro yet made the Cuban population to its scapegoat.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 10:15 pm
I'm fine with the notion of equitable wealth redisitbtion and I take Robert B. Reich's position that aggregate demand is a far better force for good than trickle-down economics.

As to free market capitalism, there are very few examples indeed. Most so-called "free-markets" are actually cartel-like, and are dominated by multi-national, multi-billion dollar, very-low-tax-paying corporations. These corporations are driven almost exclusively by short term profits, and manipulating public opinion to their advantage in their stock-in-trade. I further suggest the terms "corporate responsibly" and "good corporate citizen" are both oxymorons.

The whole argument of capitalism versus socialism is one of the biggest piles of dog-barf-laced, false-dichotomies that I have ever had the displeasure of witnessing.

I would also argue that so-called "free market capitalism" is wholly ineffectual when it comes to greatest threat mankind has ever had, that of the elephant-in-the-room headlong rush towards a global environmental armageddon.

Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 10:57 pm
@Chumly,
...is their stock-in-trade...
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2016 11:08 pm
Name one socialist ideal Bernie wants to foist on us.
Chumly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2016 09:11 am
@bobsal u1553115,
It's that creeping socialism personified by the armies of Bernie Baby Dolls, must_be_stopped_at_all_costs_must _save_ship (spoken in the strenuously broken style of the young William Shatner).
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 4 Jul, 2016 05:27 pm
@Chumly,
Bernie Sander's socialism explained:
http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/presidential-campaign/271652-what-does-sanders-mean-by-democratic-socialism
0 Replies
 
 

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