"Anti-Americanism"...what is this critter?

BlLatham: Hmmmm . . . why am i not surprised?

Asherman, very well written.

Asherman

That's a very bright and moving bit of prose. As I really have tried to communicate, I'm fond of almost everything American and hold my greatest disdain for Pamela Anderson who is Canadian.

Asherman, this is, IMO, so far, the best post I've read in A2K.

I agree with everything except one sentence, the one about Saddam and Kim wanting to live the American Dream. Of course, they love their riches and their privileges, but they do have a different logic.

A very very good thread. The Blatham-Setanta fencing is of Olympic level.

Asherman
Bravo.

Setanta et al

Just saw a post I missed by Setanta...I'd asked whether Chompsky's notion that terms/ideas such as 'un-Americanism' or 'anti-Belgianism' are notions which arise out of a push towards uniformity of value and and sentiment and are evidenced in totalitarian states. Sentanta replied:
"I would say this is definitely a tool of the totalitarian state, which is not at all the same as saying that it only arises in totalitarian states"

Any communal action will require some such push towards agreement. Thus a push towards creating unanimity seems merely a function of group life. But I press the point that there is an element here, quite distinct and seemingly unusual in American political discourse, certainly presently, which has or might have the seeds of that totalitarian impulse. Though as Asherman says, national chauvinism isn't uncommon, I do not see comparable speech examples outside of social organizations which have clear tendencies towards totalitarianism (can we think in terms of shades of grey here, not either/or). If I'm right that such speech examples are very rare, then one needs to account in some way for them.

My reply to that would be that "the push towards creating unanimity" is not a problem--but any such unanimity mandated by government would be the first step down a long flight of dimly lit stairs to a reeking, foetid pool at the bottom. This is why i was at pains to show the wide (and wild) swing from a positive view of socialism in 1930's America and Canada, to a near-Orwellian antipathy within 20 years. And this is also why i was at pains to point out that the "near-Orwellian antipathy" didn't take, and is no longer in existence. What we see today, in my never humble opinion, is an attempt at this by right-wing extremists, especially by the religious right. Hearing the howl of the wolf does not, however, mean that one will find said wolf at the door.

Wolf is not at the door for the excellent reason that darling wolfie is happily installed in Salon, munching on lambchops!

Ah, and that was no NKVD clerk, he was GRU, and no Mounties brought him in - he walked into a police station after spending the entire day waiting for the U.S. attache to see him.

What is this - a bring back Sacco and Vanzetti revivalist meeting? <G>

If I'm receiving all this clearly, it looks like there are roughly two schools of thought represented:
One says that ethnocentrism and fervent nationalism are not uncommon to civilisations that reach a certain stature. One says that America, especially after 9/11, has been displaying a strain of nationalism that is remarkably untoward and needs reigning in.

I side with the latter.

(chanting) Bring back Sacco and Vanzetti!

Yes! Or still better, leave them and bring back their hats. Hats were better then. I'm constantly in to get mine blocked.

Setanta...sorry for your pain and for encouraging you to write "... would be the first step down a long flight of dimly lit stairs to a reeking, foetid pool at the bottom". Are you resisting my attempt to 'pigeon-hole' America - to suggest there is an element in its nature, as a result of its unique history, that might make it more susceptible to a view of itself as exceptional in the manner I point to? We still don't have, unless I've quite missed it, a proffered explanation for those apparently unique, and common, speech instances - un-American, anti-American.

fishin

Yes, your examples are instances where the term 'anti-Somecountryism' are involve parties exterior from the country itself. I'm speaking of instances where, for example, Spaniards might describe their own countrymen as guilty of 'anti-Spanishism'.

In Mexico, we coined a term: malinchismo, given to Mexicans who decry their own country and prefer everything foreign. Foreigners can be Anti-Mexican; Mexicans can be malinchistas.

The word comes from Malintzin, Malinche, Doña Marina, a noble Indian woman who side with the Spaniards during the conquest and married Cortés.

Snood

What you say might be so, re achievement of power and consequent need to reign in...but I'm trying to point slightly differently here.

It would seem likely to be the case that any group, whether national or other (say, Athenians, Catholic church, the Mongols under action-figure Genghis) who take on the role of dominance do so with a set of notions or myths (by which I don't necessarily mean something false) regarding themselves, and that such myths will be unique to each such group, and perhaps, that such myths will be such a part of the conceptual air they breathe that they might be somewhat invisible.

fbaezer

Nice example...can you give me more on usage and the sense of this word How common is this usage? Is the sense one of traitorousness to national ideals? to heritage? Is it considered a problem such that it arises in national political discourse?

True blatham. For the most part they are. But then again, India was a British colony at the time mentioned.. Sryia was a French colony... The Jean Vigo story was also entirely internal.

But, there are thousands of other stories out there too. Over the last decade it became pretty common place to label those in Europe who were against the EU as "Anti-European".

I don't find anything that leads me to believe that there is anything unique to the US in any of this.

blatham
Do you think Bush can be called Anti-American based upon the damage he is doing?

trying to read it all and take it in. I'm with fishin on this - there is as much anti-Canadian feeling in Canada, particularly Quebec and Alberta (Ontario is apparently the only part of Canada where residents see themselves as Canadians before they identify themself as a member of any other group) as it seems there is anti-American feeling in the U.S. - there were several other examples he posted which i was familiar with.

I was at the same Christmas dinner Setanta was at. My view of what happened is significantly different than his report. Could be because i was an observer of the discussion rather than a participant. Could be because I'm a Canadian. In fact I'm one of those Canadians who does take a bit of offense at denigration of the royal family (could be because i'm from loyalist country, and secretly wish i could be a member of the IODE). I'd recommend taking his commentary in re that dinner and embarassed discovery of "anti-canadianism" with a grain of salt. errrrrrrr where was i going with this? oh yeah - don't burn my flag, blatham. it'll make me mighty upset and i might say you're anti-canadian or even worse uncanadian.

au...that's MY hand on the trigger...

fishin

I'm really not sure you can find comparable examples elsewhere of precisely what I point to. I cannot, though my knowledge is horridly incomplete on every subject. fbaezer's example is closest, but I don't know enough about it yet. It wouldn't apply if it doesn't come up with the sort of frequency and meaning that we see with these terms in America. The Europe example you mention was really isolated to Britain, and most particularly to Thatcher and company, yes? Thus it was again another example not of an internal view.

If I'm right, then this does tell us something unique about America. Exactly what it would tell us is perhaps equally tough to sort through, but perhaps quite significant.

Blatham:

Antimexicanos:
Arizona vigilantes who shoot at illegals.

Malinchistas:
People who say they can't drink Mexican milk, only American, because it's "more pasteurized".
People who distrust a Mexican doctor, go to Houston to get their operation. Are told in Houston they'll send for the best specialist... and find out it was that very same Mexican doctor.
People who think democracy works better in, say... Colombia or Guatemala.

The word is ultra-common. The dividing line has changed over the years, as attitudes that were formerly considered malinchista have become commonplace: such as dying the hair blonde, prefering hot cakes to huevos rancheros or drinking French wine.

The term is used, very mildly, in politics. Because it often backfires.

It was used by the PRI government to justify the killing of students who were fighting for democracy (they were promoting "an alien way of life").

It was used by the left against the PRI government when Mexico had to make an stabilization agreement with the IMF. There even was a well-know leftist song: La Maldición de Malinche. Malinche's curse.

It was used by some members of the PRI in their losing Presidential campaign against Vicente Fox. "A son of a Spaniard cannot think like a Mexican".

au, You mean to tell me the GWBush is an American? c.i.