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Ivan! Jeanne! & Karl & Dennis The Menace & Katrina

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 02:24 pm
I've been confusing those too.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 02:32 pm
Maybe now, the Bush lovers can see what their precious president is made of.

What does it take for people to see that he just doesn't give a rats ass?!
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 02:37 pm
The people in NO are shooting at those who are trying to rescue them. I don't know what you would do in that situation. What are your ideas?

They've obviously been drinking the water and their brains have been damaged.

How would you advise Bush...and what exactly is his crime in this issue?
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 02:53 pm
If Bush didn't have the military tied up in a pointless war, there would be more than enough personel to deal with that part. The national guard is being brought in shortly to police the area. What the fuk took them so long?

Why are people drinking bad water? Well, because Bush isn't getting them the water they need to survive!

I would advise bush to step down and let someone else take over. Someone who actually cares about people regardless of whether they're poor or not!

These people needed help days ago, not next fukin week!
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 03:00 pm
Bush isn't getting them the water...?

There are several people in positions of authority between the people in NO and the President.

He does have a pilot's license. Maybe he should load a cargo plane and fly it out himself.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 03:02 pm
Now THAT I would pay good money to see! Laughing
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 03:03 pm
Everyone knows I'm last in line as a Bush fan, but I am not clear that there aren't enough national guard soldiers; I am interested in the decision making closer to the spot.

Edit to say I don't envy anyone making decisions here, from the people who had to leave their animals, possessions, and homes to get on the road or on the roof to the people making command decisions.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 03:05 pm
squinney wrote:
Now THAT I would pay good money to see! Laughing

I'm sure someone would disagree with his plane loading strategy.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 03:08 pm
Me too, Osso.

I'm happy to hold him accountable for larger decisions that contributed -- underfunding of preventive measures, etc. But not sure any of it is on the scale of things being affected in any significant way by him cutting his vacation shorter, for example.

It seems like there must be disorganization right there -- why, for example, have those buses been sitting there unused for so long? It could be something like, they didn't have enough for everyone and didn't want to cause a stampede/ even more chaotic situation. But seems so far that there has been a fair amount of mismanagement/ disorganization, even given the huge logistical challenges. As in, obviously it's a terribly difficult thing to manage efficiently, and a lot of leeway needs to be given, but it seems (I haven't established this yet, still need to find out more) that even with those allowances things are more chaotic than they need to be.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 03:35 pm
Lash wrote:
Bush isn't getting them the water...?

There are several people in positions of authority between the people in NO and the President.

He does have a pilot's license. Maybe he should load a cargo plane and fly it out himself.


Yeah, why the hell not?
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 03:45 pm
<rest my case>
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 03:48 pm
Back [url=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1545874#1545874]here[/url], timber wrote:
Help was "On the way" before the storm hit ...
Massive assets were pre-positioned, and tremendous preliminary work was done ...


Quote:
This is the latest information from the Associated Press on Hurricane Katrina.
Sunday, August 28th



CLANTON, Ala. (AP) - Selma will serve as the staging area for federal disaster relief supplies for Hurricane Katrina victims in Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana, Gov. Bob Riley said Sunday. Supplies also are stockpiled at Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, he said. "I've spoken with President Bush and Homeland Security Secretary Chertoff, both of whom have assured me they will offer any assistance we may need to recover from this devastating storm," Riley said in a statement released by the Emergency Management Agency at Clanton headquarters. Alabama also has pre-positioned supplies, sent National Guard troops to Mobile and Baldwin counties, and opened storm shelters. Riley said the state already has 290,000 bags of ice, more than 250,000 gallons of water, 652,000 MREs (meals ready to eat), and 110,000 tarps measuring 20 feet by 25 feet. State EMA Director Bruce Baughman said 14 rescue teams are on standby and 26 emergency shelters, including three for people with special medical needs, are open across the state.


Now, this is Thursday, August 1. Katrina hit the coast on Monday, August 29, and raged throughout the day, rendering the impact area totally inaccessible. Not untill Tuesday, Aug ust 30, was it even possible to begin assessing the damage and directly responding to the calamity. Among the first of the observed effects was that the entire transportation, communications, and power infrastructure were gone and area emergency services assets were themselves devastated, equipment gone, without communications, and with many personnel stranded by flooding and road ruin, unable to assemble and react, and most equipment destroyed, damaged, or missing. Apart from that, it was discovered New Orlean's levee system and pumps, thought secure, in fact had failed catastrophically. Hundreds of thousands were homeless, scores of thousands were stranded and in need of rescue.

Meanwhile, Guard and Military units alerted and/or called up prior to the storm's landfall had to be prepared for deployment, then actually deployed to the area. By Tuesday evening, they were beginning to arrive, by Wednesday, August 31, they were pouring in, and as of today there are tens of thousands, with their equipment and with tens of thousands of tons of supplies on-scene, already being distributed. Federal spending in direct response already has reached a Half Billion Dollars a day.

To bring aid to those who need it in the nearly 100,000-square-mile disaster area, roads and bridges have to be rebuilt, airport runways have to be cleared of mountains of debris, those in need of the aid must be located, resources must be inventoried and scheduled for dispatch, and order must be restored. Physical provisions must be made for the on-scene bivouac and logistic requirements of the responding military. Facillities to receive the evacuated must be secured and prepared (which, among other things, means calling in additional staff and laying in of additional supplies), and contingencies of most unexpected and extreme nature must be met and accommodated. While the victims have suffered horribly, and continue to suffer, never before in history, anywhere else in the world, has so much been done for so many in so little time. The recovery has barely begun, already has reached historic proportion, and will continue to swell at unprecedented pace.

Yes, the situation is desperate. Heroic measures have been undertaken to address the situation, and heroes are giving their all to the effort. Much needs to be done - unimagineably much. Much has been done, unimagineably much. And all this has been accomplished in unimagineably short order, under unimagineably difficult conditions. And while needful things are being done, some folks carp and whine about things in the real world being not as they might wish for them to be.

Damn that real world - its an inconvenient, ucooperative, very unutopian place.
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Vivien
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 03:51 pm
aren't people in surrounding areas helping at all?

small boats/buses/cars/ ANYTHING
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Vivien
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 03:51 pm
aren't people in surrounding areas helping at all?

small boats/buses/cars/ ANYTHING
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 04:00 pm
The AP article Setanta linked did say 2800 national guard troops (were) there, and I had read article before and didn't catch that.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 04:27 pm
Dutch newspaper de Volkskrant observes from afar; interesting points, one of which makes me more sympathetic to BBB's early outcry. (My translation.)

Quote:
New Orleans now a ghost town

New Orleans has changed into a lethally dangerous ghost town. Only rescue workers, civilians waiting for evaucation and armed plunderers are still in the American city. The city is now for over 80 percent under heavily polluted water [..]. There is fear of cholera and other illnesses because of the many corpses lying in the water. [..]

Local authorities and medicians have asked President Bush urgently for more federal help and assistence from the army. 'People don't realise how bad the situation in New Orleans has become', said Richard Zeuschlag, who leads the largest private ambulance service of the city. 'It is disastrous, mortally dangerous.'

The shelter of 23 thousand people who hadn't left the city, was no longer sustainable on Wednesday morning. In the Superdome-stadium, where [they] gathered, a crisis erupted. There wasn't enough water and food while it was above 30 degrees. The toilets didn't work anymore, there was fighting and shooting. [..]

In New Orleans yesterday scores of people were still being lifted from roofs by helicopters. Others were stuck on balconies and roofs, waving with sheets and placards saying 'Help us'. On high-lying places like viaducts, groups of people gathered, hoping for water and help. [..]

Paul McHale, deputy minister of Defence, expected that the local police and the National Guard on state level are able to cope with the criminality themselves, without assistance of the army. He was asked if there were enough members of the Guards available, considering a great number is in Iraq. 'There is sufficient capacity to return and maintain order', said McHale. [..]

Its the last paragraph that stuck in my throat. So he's asserting there is sufficient capacity, and yet it's clear that anarchy reigns. I'd say you'd either admit there isn't enough capacity, but point out that with a disaster this superhuman scale that couldn't realistically be expected, either; or you claim there is enough capacity, but then of course you'll have to be succeeding in reigning in the anarchy. Sorry, but this is just so, Bush. Just asserting there is no problem.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 04:50 pm
A slight quibble, not with you or your comment, nimh, but on the expectation of cholera. You have to have cholera in the population to get cholera in the water, and it probably isn't in the population. That particular scourge isn't as likely as some others.

There was an article earlier this morning that backs me up on that, but I didn't save the link.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 05:08 pm
watched an interview with the chairman of lloyd's of london on CNBC at about 5:45 pm today.
he was asked if this disaster would present problems for the insurance companies. with a (very) slight smile on his face he replied that insurance companies had taken into account the risks presented in NO, such as : location, under sea level etc. he did not think that insurance companies would have any problems paying their claims. reading between the lines - perhaps incorrectly - he seemed to suggest that the risk premium charged to policyholders in NO could have been lower if some better actions would have been taken in the planning of the infrastructure for the city of NO.
or putting it differently : the insurance companies calculated that a major hurricane would cause enormous losses and priced the premiums accordingly - which is the only choice they had.
it seems that the old saying still holds : you can either pay me now or later.
unfortunetely it's the poor citizens of NO that will now be stuck with paying the bill - particularly those who had no insurance at all - usually the poorest of the poor. hbg
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 05:12 pm
nimh--

Where did Bush say there is no problem--and these people who have asked Bush for help--when/where did they speak to him?
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 05:18 pm
Lash
Lash wrote:
nimh--

Where did Bush say there is no problem--and these people who have asked Bush for help--when/where did they speak to him?


You keep setting yourself up.

During Bush's entire term as president, he has cut the funds in every budget for maintaining and improving the levee and lock system in New Orleans. This is well known. Where have you been?

BBB
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