Does Bush deserve to be POTUS one more time?

Let's see if I can't help Frank out a little.

Why is Bush a moron?


The correct answer would be, because he was born that way and didn't do anything to change it. I suspect your real question is, 'Why do you think Bush is a moron?' To which my answer would be:

- He consistenly stumbles in his speech worse than any other president I can remember. He fails to show a complete (or even adequate) understanding of the current geo-political system of the world.

- In the past, every company he personally ran went under the table (many were associated with shady oil dealings).

- He ran the state economy of Texas into the ground during his stint as Gov'; we went from a giant surplus to a giant defecit during his time there, with little to show for it except dropping rates of health care coverage and some of the worst education scores in the nation.

- He has made consistently bad choices re: our military. Whether this is because the people around him are giving him bad advice or whether he is calling the wrong shots, the buck still lies with him.

- He has shown that he doesn't understand the first thing about the environment, stem cell research, or alternative energies; his policies on these topics are horribly inconsistent and seem much more oriented to business profits than truly advancing science and protecting the environment.

Who and How are the people "pulling his strings" a greatedr threat to freedom and values?

Rumsfeld. Wolfowitz. Cheney. These guys were all huge political rivals of Bush's father, who wouldn't let them get close to the white house at all.

In fact, Bush Sr. disagreed with most, if not all, the policies put forward by those three for a long time. Many republicans did. But these new conservatives, the Neo-conservatives, do not value freedom whatsoever. This has been consistently displayed in their statements and attitudes toward the freedoms that make our country great.

It is a major problem when the advisors to the president are giving him what many would consider to be very bad advice. I'm sure most people realize that Bush never really had any hand in getting into the presidency; he was picked to be the next president by the top Neocons, and identified as the best client during discussions with the PNAC (google that if ya don't know it), so it's not really a surprise that he acts as a mouthpiece for those who are truly making policies. But it is saddening.

Why should Bush not had a first term? He did win the election.

Actually, he didn't win the election. The election was decided in his favor by a court. To me, that doesn't matter at all; he got in there, so he's there. He just shouldn't have been put up as the mouthpiece of the republican party in the first place. The neocons have co-opted the Repub's, and gotten the religious right under their thumb, and it's not a good thing for the Republican party or for America.

What exactly has he done to damage the country?

That would take too long to list. Let's just say that you would be hard pressed to find a category in which we were doing better when he started than we are now.

Cycloptichorn

Cyclo - Are you on Kerry's payroll? You speak in soundbites but offer no substance to your conclusions.

-- He consistenly stumbles in his speech worse than any other president I can remember. He fails to show a complete (or even adequate) understanding of the current geo-political system of the world.

Maybe it would be better if he spoke more eloquently, however, I find him easy to understand. Also, how does geo-politics relate to the speaking style. Explain further what part of the "geo-political system" he does not understand.

- In the past, every company he personally ran went under the table (many were associated with shady oil dealings).

Not true. The Texas Rangers are still operating.

I can not speak to his time as Gov. of Texas, so I will assume you are correct.

- He has made consistently bad choices re: our military. Whether this is because the people around him are giving him bad advice or whether he is calling the wrong shots, the buck still lies with him.

Disagree. Exceptional planning and execution in Afgan and excellant planning going into Iraq. Wll question his handeling of the post war situation.

- He has shown that he doesn't understand the first thing about the environment, stem cell research, or alternative energies; his policies on these topics are horribly inconsistent and seem much more oriented to business profits than truly advancing science and protecting the environment

Most scientists do not understand totally stem cell research. He is taking a cautious approach which I support. Agree will no sound policies on alternative energies, yet every President since Kennedy have failed in this area and supported the "GM's" of the world.

I doubt it...but I will give it a try.



I suspect it is genetic.





Dick Cheney and John Ashcroft to name two. And they are a greater threat to our freedom and values because they can infect our country with the pathetic "hooray for me; fvuk you" philosophy that they vend.

Osama Bin Laden cannot do that. All he can do is to attack us.




Because he is a moron...and because the people he brought into power...(the people who use the poor boob as their boy toy)...are dangerous to our country and to the world.






Okay, I'll grant you that.





Goddam near everything he can.

He has absolutely ruined our prestige in the world; alienating age old allies (especially at the grassroots level). He has helped world wide terrorism by being a poster child for their recruiting efforts.

And lots more...but you get the idea.


I hope that was of help. If you want to discuss any of this, I'll be happy to accomodate you...but this prosecutorial questioning really is out of place.

Wow...I posted my reply after reading Woiyo post...and completely missed Cyc's reply.

I like his better than mine, Woiyo. Use it.

Or use a combination of both.

Perhaps you'd like to make something of the few differences I noticed.

(I'll let Cyc handle your response...but I had to comment on this one.)

I'd be more careful about letting the world know that, Woiyo. The man not only is a moron, he is even more syntactically challenged than his father...who was a world class sentence mangler.

Agrote:



That is the ONLY good thing George W. Bush has done for this country. We can only hope that there will be a much less compacent electorate out there with the passion to have their voices heard.

Bush has been terrible for this country. The worst terrorist act on U.S. soil happened on his watch. Most jobs lost since Herbert Hoover. Outsourcing. Secrecy. Oy, I could go on and on....

A further quantifying question would be "are you better off than you were four years ago?"

I certainly am not. Therefore, I will not vote for Bush in November.

Damnit Frank, that was the point I was going to make!

I firmly believe that there are a lot of people out there who like the fact that Bush isn't eloquent. Not because it makes them feel like he is stupid; rather, it makes uneloquent people feel they are smart. Everyone likes to feel like they are smart. Therefore, a lot of Bush's popularity is explained right off the bat - he's great at dumbing things down.

Now, on to the show.

Cyclo - Are you on Kerry's payroll? You speak in soundbites but offer no substance to your conclusions.


Every single one of the topics I listed, we could have a twenty page debate over them. In fact, we did. Use the 'search' function and you will find threads covering all of the topics I listed, and I'd be relatively confident that I've posted in the vast majority of them.

My intention was to provide a list of reasons for your answer, not write a book about each one.

And not to be nitpicky, but Kerry doesn't do this near to the level Bush does. Tell me, what does Bush mean when he said we should have an 'ownership society?' Has he gone on to explain what he means by that, let alone how we are going to do it? Everyone in politics is guilty of what you are accusing Kerry of.

Maybe it would be better if he spoke more eloquently, however, I find him easy to understand. Also, how does geo-politics relate to the speaking style. Explain further what part of the "geo-political system" he does not understand.

See the first part of my post for the first part of this. As for the second, this is a man who couldn't find many countries on a map, can't name the capitals of many of our allies' countries, cannot take the time to learn to pronounce things right.

Once again, we could go on on this topic for a long time. I suggest you use the search function, or try the thread called 'replacing GW in 2004.' all 500+ pages of it.

Not true. The Texas Rangers are still operating.

I can not speak to his time as Gov. of Texas, so I will assume you are correct.


Yeah, the rangers are doing OK. It's one of the few companies that Bush ran that is; one of the major reasons is that the board of directors blocked a lot of things he tried to do as CEO, especially when it came to oil investments. Too bad my alma mater's investment group (UTIMCO) didn't do the same thing.

As for his time in Texas, look it up. Educate yourself. It's eerily similar to his time in the Presidency.

Disagree. Exceptional planning and execution in Afgan and excellant planning going into Iraq. Wll question his handeling of the post war situation.

I will agree with you, the planning and execution of the actual attack portions of our wars went well. But that's only one half of the coin, and anyways, when fighting such inferior opponents, what do you expect? Everyone knew we were gonna slaughter 'em.

As for the post-war decisions, they are definately worth questioning. You might also want to look into the situation in Afghanistan; the place is a shambles, we don't have any troops to send to help out, and the Taliban is back and kicking. The planning there also wasn't so good.

As bringers of 'freedom' to these countries we attack, we have a GIGANTIC RESPONSIBILITY not just to plan the war but to plan the peace! Which we failed to do in both cases. Iraq is a budgetary disaster; a logistical nightmare; and we don't even control large portions of it, the rebels do. It's a shame we haven't upheld our end of the bargain to the Iraqi people.

Once again, for more on this topic, see 'The US, UN, and Iraqis vs. Themselves pt. 7.'

Most scientists do not understand totally stem cell research. He is taking a cautious approach which I support. Agree will no sound policies on alternative energies, yet every President since Kennedy have failed in this area and supported the "GM's" of the world.

Well, most scientists don't work on stem cells, so it is logical to say that most of them don't understand the research.

I don't have a big problem with Bush being cautious, but the strategy he has chosen with which to do so is full of flaws and inconsistencies. It really needs review, and there are huge amounts of biologists and other scientists who agree with me.

As for the other part.... I agree; no president has done a good job with renewables. But we are just now getting to the point where such technologies are matching the efficiency of oil, and the production can be cheap enough to be actually sustainable over the long term.

The problem is that a change to alternative energies will have to be both gradual and sudden at the same time; gradual in that the change away from oil and coal will not happen overnight, sudden in that if there are no policy changes made, it will never happen. We need a big push from the government to get us off the tit of foreign oil, and whoever gives that push is going to be pretty unpopular with the oil companies. Something tells me Bush will not be the one to do that.



All that being said, Cheers! And this has beena good debate so far.

Cycloptichorn

The worst thing about the current administration is that they would rather have the public scared than not...

They keep scratching the scab off of 9/11 and terrorism, never letting it start the healing process. And then they point to the fact that since another terrorist event hasn't occurred they are doing a great job.

Prior to 9/11 people lived in relative peace and harmony - without really thinking about the colour of the terror-level today. It's not 9/11 that's put things on our minds so much as it is coloured terror-meters, an unjustified war against Iraq, and an unwinnable war on terror. It is almost impossible to watch an hour of american news without seeing explosions and machine guns...is that really how we want to live?

...I guess when looking at the big picture though, a scared public doesn't question authority, which results in all sorts of rules being created to benefit the richest 1% of the population, you know Bush's friends.

Anyway, it's kind of rough now, but I'm willing to be it'll be a lot rougher in 15-20 years when all the little kids who don't have fathers or mothers in the middle east decide to get even.

Bush needs to go and we need to repair relationships with the rest of the world soon. It takes everyone to make this boat float and only one or two to sink it.

as i understand it, chechnya is an islamic majority country.

but that on it's own means nothing. the russian and armenian gangs here in l.a. are making a very bad reputation for themselves. a very violent bunch.

i am a registered libertarian for nearly 30 years and i'm voting for kerry.

know why?

A) because the libertarians never stand anyone that can win. and i say that having been involved with the media production team on the harry brown campaign in 2000.

B) i think kerry is capable of doing a good job.

C) bush is in no way deserving of another term. if i want what he and his boys are sellin', i'll go live in putin's russia. or iran.

sorry that my decision to stand and be counted for what i believe bothers you so much.

woiyo:



Then you probably quite easily understood Dumbya when he said:

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.

That seems pretty easy to understand. Don't you think, woiyo?

Yes, it is. The fact you don't know what he is saying does nothing but reflect upon yourself.

Mcg, don't make me break out the "examples of the intelligence of George W. Bush" thread again. :wink:

McGentrix:

Sounds like you're the expert on Dubyaspeak.

Then shat IS Dumbya saying? And I'd suggest not vearing off Dumbya's intended grammatical path, since woiyo suggests that what Dumbya says is quite plainly easy to understand.

And how is that a reflection upon myself? Or are you yourself practicing a little Dubyaspeak here?

Bush's actions speak louder than his words.

It's a bitter mind that looks no further than a man's words to decide his character.

Dookie - Yes.. quite easy to understand. He never stops anticipating what the enemy may want to do.

I am surprised you would find THAT quote difficult to understand.

Just for you, because I have a soft spot in my heart for liberals of all types...



Easy enough, right? Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, we are innovative and resourceful.



They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people. We never stop thinking about how they never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people.

Seems straight forward and understandable. We need to be constantly wary of what and how our enemies want to hurt us.

woiyo:



Actually, woiyo, I don't find the quote difficult to understand at all. But perhaps you should read it again, and then perhaps take either a refresher course in English 101, or consult with a friend who understands the language better than you do, because what Bush said (in a grammatically CORRECT way) is that he and his cronies never stop thinking of ways to harm our country, JUST like the terrorists. Which would additionally imply that Bush and the terrorists are actually allies against this country.

I'm sure you could correct me if I'm wrong, but that would only negate your last comment.

McGentrix:

It is a stupid man who cannot clarify himself enough thereby ALLOWING those to look beyond his words to decide his character.

And as far as actions speaking louder than words, I would agree with Dumbya that his actions regarding destroying this country ARE much louder than the words of the aforementioned quote.

But in reality, what Dumbya says and what he does exist entirely in different universes altogether.

McGentrix:



That's not what he said, McGentrix. Are you attempting to whitewash Bush?

Once again, for posterity:



You can spin this anyway you please. You're rewriting of historical quotes cannot work, for Bush was grammitically correct in his statement.

Dookie,

You forced denial in understanding what the president says is nothing more than a smokescreen of denial keeping you from recognizing the fact that Bush, while not the best president ever, is a far cry from the worse.

In these trying times of extremism in American politics, it is in vogue to strike a pose and be against the president. So, I'll observe your pose and then carry on with life.