3
   

die vs dice

 
 
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 04:38 am
According to my dictionary, "dice" is singular and also plural.

But a native speaker told me that "die" is singular, and "dice" is plural.

I wonder if he is right about this.

Thanks.
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 04:45 am
Yes, he is correct. From Merriam-Webster's online dictionary, the number one definition of die, when used as a noun:

1 plural dice : a small cube marked on each face with from one to six spots and used usually in pairs in various games and in gambling by being shaken and thrown to come to rest at random on a flat surface —often used figuratively in expressions concerning chance or the irrevocability of a course of action <the die was cast>

Dies is the plural of the noun die when used to denote a cutting tool. Dice is the plural of the noun die as defined above. What dictionary are you using?
0 Replies
 
tanguatlay
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 05:34 am
@tanguatlay,
Thanks, Setanta.

But the dictionary I referred to is Oxford Dictionary. Maybe it is a case of British vs American English.
tanguatlay
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 10:49 am
@tanguatlay,
Could a British native speaker please comment? Thanks.

It confuses me because the native speaker mentioned in my first post is a British native speaker.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 10:52 am
@tanguatlay,
there aren't a lot of those left
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 10:57 am
@tanguatlay,
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/die#die-2

Quote:
NOUN

1 singular form of dice.
tanguatlay
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 11:13 am
@ehBeth,
Thanks, ehBeth.

I don't understand why my British friend said "die"is the singular form.

It is now clear-cut from your reply and Setanta's that my friend is wrong because as a Britishman, he should not have made the mistake of using the American version.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 11:15 am
@tanguatlay,
The Oxford and Merriam suggest die as the singular form of dice. It is used that way in British and American English.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 11:16 am
@tanguatlay,
tanguatlay wrote:

It is now clear-cut from your reply and Setanta's that my friend is wrong because as a Britishman, he should not have made the mistake of using the American version.



die is also the British form according to the Oxford link I gave

your friend was correct
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 11:17 am
@tanguatlay,
tanguatlay wrote:
as a Britishman


Englishman
tanguatlay
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 11:33 am
@ehBeth,
According to online Oxford dictionaries, historically "die" is the singular of "dice", but in modern standard English "dice" is both singular and plural.

To me, the modern English definition should be followed. My friend, an Englishman, is therefore wrong in using the old version. In my opinion, he is behind time.
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 11:36 am
@tanguatlay,
There is absolutely nothing wrong with "die", nor is it out of common usage. You are reading that "dice" can be used in the plural to mean it should be or must be or that that is the preferred usage. That is not correct.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 11:37 am
@tanguatlay,
tanguatlay wrote:
he is behind time.


he is behind the times is the correct idiom

__

in any case, that is your opinion

the Oxford disagrees with you, as does your friend

__

separately, I wonder why you follow the Oxford when more people globally use American English than British English. While I'm Canadian and mostly follow British English, I realize that American English is used and understood by more people.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 11:38 am
@ehBeth,
let's try this again

the Oxford says die is a noun for the singular form of dice

ehBeth wrote:
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 11:39 am
@tanguatlay,
tanguatlay wrote:
It is now clear-cut from your reply and Setanta's that my friend is wrong


it appears that you have not understood my posts in this thread
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 11:48 am
There is an expression, "The die is cast." If you said "the dice is cast", every single native English speaker would tell you it was wrong.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 11:50 am
@engineer,
I always thought that was about die-casting. The end result is the same - things are unchangeable after the die is cast, but I've never thought it had anything to do with die/dice. Must come from having so many tool and die guys around when I was a kid.
Tes yeux noirs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 01:14 pm
I am a native British English speaker. These days you can mostly get away with saying 'dice' for the singular. Likewise media and data. For very formal writing you should probably take care to use the dictionary singular and plural. Raising an objection during a conversation among equals would probably earn stares and people would think you were an Aspie or something.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 03:04 pm
@ehBeth,
The die is cast is a famous quotation of Iulius Caesar. He is said to have told his troops as they crossed the Rubicon River in northern Italy in defiance of the Senate, iacta alea est, "the die is cast." That is from Suetonius' historical biography The Lives of the Twelve Caesars. Modern Latin mavens will tell you that it ought to be alea iacta est; as Suetonius was born in Rome and was a native speaker of Latin, i'll take his word over that of contemporary Latin scholars.

Not only is die commonly used in the modern American language, but in gaming, as in board games and video games based on board games, die is even used in plural contexts. So, for example, in Dungeon's and Dragons, by Wizards of the Coast, if the probability of an event is X out of ten, it will read "one die ten." But it goes on from there--if one casts the spell fireball, the damage is described as 6 die 6, meaning that six six-sided dice are thrown, ant the amount of damage--6 to 36 points--is determined by totaling the pips on top of the six dice. But it is expressed, invariably, as 6 die 6.

Until today, i had never in my life heard of anyone referring to a single die as "dice." I think i will compose an angry letter to The Times.
Tes yeux noirs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 May, 2016 03:45 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Until today, i had never in my life heard of anyone referring to a single die as "dice."

The New Oxford Dictionary of English, Judy Pearsall, Patrick Hanks (1998) states that “In modern standard English, the singular die (rather than dice) is uncommon. Dice is used for both the singular and the plural.”

Some authorities state that the singular 'dice' is 'standard in British English':

1980, Benny Andersson and Björn Ulvaeus, “The Winner Takes It All” (Abba), Super Trouper:
The gods may throw a dice / Their minds as cold as ice

1945, Lawrence Durrell, Prospero's Cell: A Guide to the Landscape and Manners of the Island of Corfu:
A white house set like a dice on a rock already venerable with the scars of wind and water.

2009, Hubert L. Dreyfus, Mark A. Wrathall, A Companion to Phenomenology and Existentialism, page 106:
When we see a dice, we see an object which has six sides, some of which can be seen from where we are, others can be seen if we twist it or move around it.
 

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