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National Review Calls Bernie Sanders A Nazi

 
 
Olivier5
 
  4  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 12:15 am
@oralloy,
Alright. Should Sanders burn in a concentration camp then? Would that make you happy to burn one more Jew? Or would you need to burn ALL the millions of "self-hating Jews" before your hatred of them abates?

Sporting a two-stripp moustache yet?
Below viewing threshold (view)
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 03:20 am
Sanders is not a Nazi. If he was Israel wouldn't have a problem with him. Look how they treated John Vorster.
Quote:
During the second world war the future South African prime minister John Vorster was interned as a Nazi sympathiser. Three decades later he was being feted in Jerusalem.
Israel was openly critical of apartheid through the 1950s and 60s as it built alliances with post-colonial African governments. But most African states broke ties after the 1973 Yom Kippur war and the government in Jerusalem began to take a more benign view of the isolated regime in Pretoria. The relationship changed so profoundly that, in 1976, Israel invited the South African prime minister, John Vorster - a former Nazi sympathiser and a commander of the fascist Ossewabrandwag that sided with Hitler - to make a state visit.

Leaving unmentioned Vorster's wartime internment for supporting Germany, Israel's prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, hailed the South African premier as a force for freedom and made no mention of Vorster's past as he toured the Jerusalem memorial to the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis. At a state banquet, Rabin toasted "the ideals shared by Israel and South Africa: the hopes for justice and peaceful coexistence". Both countries, he said, faced "foreign-inspired instability and recklessness".

Vorster, whose army was then overrunning Angola, told his hosts that South Africa and Israel were victims of the enemies of western civilisation. A few months later, the South African government's yearbook characterised the two countries as confronting a single problem: "Israel and South Africa have one thing above all else in common: they are both situated in a predominantly hostile world inhabited by dark peoples."

Vorster's visit laid the ground for a collaboration that transformed the Israel-South Africa axis into a leading weapons developer and a force in the international arms trade. Liel, who headed the Israeli foreign ministry's South Africa desk in the 80s, says that the Israeli security establishment came to believe that the Jewish state may not have survived without the relationship with the Afrikaners.

"We created the South African arms industry," says Liel. "They assisted us to develop all kinds of technology because they had a lot of money. When we were developing things together we usually gave the know-how and they gave the money. After 1976, there was a love affair between the security establishments of the two countries and their armies.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel
0 Replies
 
Tes yeux noirs
 
  3  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 03:34 am
Israel and South Africa are said to have co-operated on building nuclear weapons in the 1970s, and South Africa (according to some reports) ended up with stock of 6 gun-type fission weapons (like the Hiroshima "little boy"), later dismantled.
Olivier5
 
  4  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 08:36 am
@oralloy,
Bernie and others like him just don't think only in tribal terms, that's all. Makes them good people to me.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 09:55 am
@Olivier5,
In fact, the very concept of "self-hating Jew" is based on the idea that Jews MUST behave in a tribal way, otherwise they are mentally deranged. Therefore, it is an antisemitic concept, inasmuch as the same is not expected of any other ethnic group.
Tes yeux noirs
 
  3  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 10:41 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
the very concept of "self-hating Jew" is based on the idea that Jews MUST behave in a tribal way

Who said “Two Jews, three opinions.”? I like the story about the Jew who was discovered after years of living alone on a desert island. His rescuers noticed that he had built two huts aside from the one he lived in. He told the puzzled people who saved him that they were shuls, or synagogues. When asked why he needed two shuls, he replied, “One is the one in which I pray, and the other is the one into which I would never set foot.”

The British Jewish Chronicle has a section called "Rabbi, I have a problem". The questions are always answered by two rabbis, one Orthodox and one Reform. The readers' problems cover all topics - "Which husband should be buried with?" (Orthodox: you decide, Reform: you decide), "Can I give my pet horse a Jewish funeral? (Orthodox: no!, Reform: why not?). They don't always agree, but one they were united on was "Is it my religious duty to support Israel?".

The Orthodox guy said [Israel is important but] "this does not mean that the state of Israel is imbued with intrinsic sanctity ... Nor does it mean that the only place to live a fulfilling Jewish life is in Israel ... It does not mean that one must slavishly support the policies of the Israeli government ... Nor does it mean that one must conflate Israel with Judaism".

The Reform guy said: "... self-evidently your lack of feelings towards a political state the other side of the Mediterranean does not disqualify you from being Jewish. Nor need it stop others from considering you a good Jew ... It is also worth pointing out the unpleasant fact that if, though may it never happen, Israel were to be destroyed, Judaism would carry on, as it did before, and Jews would be no less Jewish ... [Israel is important but] that is not to say that everything that Israel does is right or defensible, and, just as with Britain, there can be a big distinction between one’s attitude to the policies of the government of the day and to the country as a whole. Of course, identification with Israel can be taken to extremes. Putting attachment to the land over moral actions is breaking Hillel’s dictum* and veers towards blasphemy. Alternatively, British Jews who make Israel their sole mark of Jewish identity and ignore all other aspects of Jewish life are also problematic. Balance is a much under-estimated religious concept, and applies here too."

*Hillel’s one sentence summary of Judaism: “What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour; the rest is commentary”

http://www.thejc.com/judaism/rabbi-i-have-a-problem


oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 10:48 am
@Tes yeux noirs,
Tes yeux noirs wrote:
Israel and South Africa are said to have co-operated on building nuclear weapons in the 1970s,

Said by who?


Tes yeux noirs wrote:
and South Africa (according to some reports) ended up with stock of 6 gun-type fission weapons (like the Hiroshima "little boy"), later dismantled.

I'm sure Israel's specialization in plutonium implosion designs was of great use in South Africa's uranium gun designs.

Israel's actual nuclear partner was France.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 10:49 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Bernie and others like him just don't think only in tribal terms, that's all.

There is also his untrue accusation that other Jews are committing horrendous crimes, and his call on other people to turn against those Jews.


Olivier5 wrote:
Makes them good people to me.

You are of course free to like as many Nazis as you wish.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 10:50 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
In fact, the very concept of "self-hating Jew" is based on the idea that Jews MUST behave in a tribal way, otherwise they are mentally deranged.

It is based on the horrible reality that some Jews are Nazis.


Olivier5 wrote:
Therefore, it is an antisemitic concept, inasmuch as the same is not expected of any other ethnic group.

Nazis are horrendous regardless of their ethnic group.

The reason why a Jewish Nazi is unusually abhorrent is because the Nazis murdered so many Jews.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 11:03 am
@Olivier5,
The first time that term was used was (in German) by Anton Kuh (a so-called "Cultural Bolshevist" in his book Juden und Deutsche (1921). ( Theodor Lessing used it in the same year, other [German speaking] authors followed.)

For Kuh, "Jewish self-hatred" indicated "a sort of messianic promise" rather than a "self-abnegating outlook".
Thus as originally formulated and understood, the term was positive, even salvific, more a solution to the Jewish situation than a symptom of it.
See: Paul Reitter. On the Origins of Jewish Self-Hatred. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2012.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 11:05 am
@oralloy,
Nazis were ultra-nationalists. Hence ultra-tribal. Somebody like Sanders who values equality among all men and women cannot fit the description.


But you could.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 11:07 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Therefore, "self-hating Jew" is not only logically but also historically an antisemitic concept.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 11:12 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
It is based on the horrible reality that some Jews are Nazis.
As were Catholics, Evangelicals/Protestants ...
When you look at the percentage of religious belief among NSDAP-members, it would mirror (more or less) the precentage of those religions in Germany of that time. However, Jewish members of the NSDAP were a total minority, just some Zionists saw Hitler's "ideas" being similar to their own.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 11:43 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Somebody like Sanders who values equality among all men and women cannot fit the description.

Sanders falsely accused other Jews of horrendous crimes, and called on people to turn against those Jews. That is more than enough to prove that he is a Nazi.


Olivier5 wrote:
But you could.

I have nothing in common with any Nazis whatsoever.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 11:44 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Therefore, "self-hating Jew" is not only logically but also historically an antisemitic concept.

There is nothing anti-Semitic about the denunciation of Nazis.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 11:52 am
@oralloy,
Sadly, you do have much more in common with them than you will ever be able to perceive. Like your complacency with general and meaningless vilainies ("horrendous crimes") instead of facts; your worldview in black and white; your us-vs-them mentality; or your expressed desire to see entire nations burn alive...
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 12:12 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Olivier5 wrote:
Therefore, "self-hating Jew" is not only logically but also historically an antisemitic concept.

There is nothing anti-Semitic about the denunciation of Nazis.

Thanks for the opportunity to expand a bit.

I believe the concept of "self-hating Jew" is intrinsinctly and logically racist, and I prove it thus: It reduces any Jewish individual to his race, and his race only. In the worldview that's behind the phrase, Bernie is NOT an individual with its singularities and particularities and multiple identities (baseball fan, socialist, heterosexual, heavy metal groupy - I'm just making these examples of multiple affiliations up). No no no. He is not an complicated and unique individual. He is just A JEW. If he ever has any misgivings about some Jewish politician half a world away, he is hating the JEWS. All of them, including HIMSELF.

Otherwise, in the normal, non-racist worldview, he is just disagreeing with another Jew. You don't hate yourself when you disagree with another American, do you?
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 12:55 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Like your complacency with general and meaningless vilainies ("horrendous crimes") instead of facts;

It is a proven fact that Sanders falsely accused Israel of disproportionate attacks. Other crimes that Nazis like to accuse Jews of doing are things like murdering non-Jewish babies and drinking their blood.

No matter how much you would like to absolve the Nazis of such accusations, it remains entirely factual that Nazis make such false accusations against Jews.

My characterization of these false accusations as "horrendous crimes" does not in any way mean that Nazis have not falsely accused Jews of doing them.

Nor is it meaningless or empty when Nazis like Sanders falsely accuse other Jews of committing such crimes. These false accusations have been the foundation of the senseless murder of millions of Jews.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2016 01:02 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
I believe the concept of "self-hating Jew" is intrinsinctly and logically racist, and I prove it thus: It reduces any Jewish individual to his race, and his race only. In the worldview that's behind the phrase, Bernie is NOT an individual with its singularities and particularities and multiple identities (baseball fan, socialist, heterosexual, heavy metal groupy - I'm just making these examples of multiple affiliations up). No no no. He is not an complicated and unique individual. He is just A JEW. If he ever has any misgivings about some Jewish politician half a world away, he is hating the JEWS. All of them, including HIMSELF.

The reason why it is significant when a Jew is a Nazi is because of the horrible murders of millions of Jews at the hands of the Nazis.


Olivier5 wrote:
Otherwise, in the normal, non-racist worldview, he is just disagreeing with another Jew. You don't hate yourself when you disagree with another American, do you?

Falsely accusing Jews of committing horrendous crimes and calling on people to turn against them is quite a bit more than a mere disagreement.
 

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