Republican Convention

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In any case, there is a difference between protest and disruption. If the activity is restricted to peaceful protest, then I have no problem with it.

All the while praying there is enough violence so he can say "See?"

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Can you blame him joe? Everyone want to see things go well for their side.

Personally, I think this is a win-win for Democrats either way. Either the protests will be massive and peaceful, or they will be massive and non-peaceful.

The first way is good because it shows just how many are against the corrupt politics that are being used in the white hose.

The second is just as good; massive scenes of civil disobedience are likely to cause an over-reaction from the NYPD et cetera. Somehow I doubt that images of policemen firing swarms of rubber bullets into crowds are going to bolster the republican cause.

Cycloptichorn

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NPR newsies had a segment about it this morning.

Common belief is that it is a lose-lose for the Democrats.

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Bah. Common belief can go stuff itself.

Who is going to be turned off of the Kerry cause because of protestors, exactly? Those who are already voting for Bush?

Your position rests upon the assumption that undecided voters will see protests and react favorably towards Bush because people were protesting. But why should this be the case? At the very least, it will take a huge amount of attention away from the things that are going on inside. At best, it will give people an example of just how many of us are disgusted with Bush and his exploitation of 9/11, and a chance to hear good arguments from the 'man on the street.'

Do you think an undecided voter is going to see all that protest and suddenly decide that Kerry is a bad guy, because all these people are supporting him? Get realistic. Most people are aware of the fact that tons of people hate Bush, so it won't come as any surprise to them....

I think the estimations that have been given for the size of the protests are way low. Especially given that we are talking about New Yorkers; people who are never afraid to speak their minds on a subject. If you think a million people protesting Bush won't make a positive difference for Kerry, you are not being realistic. The RNC has the potential for being a galvanizing moment for the Democrats much more so than the Republicans...

Cycloptichorn

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Lay down with dogs--get up with fleas---
Birds of a feather flock together--
Guilt by association--

These adages have developed in our culture throughout time. So, they must be indelibly etched in the minds of most people.

They will see a bunch of America-loving folks on the inside being assailed, maligned, yelled at and treated badly by those outside....who will likely have all types of signage, belching ridiculous statements, that don't represent the morals, opinions or lifestyles of the rather thoughtful, rather conservative Americans who are still undecided.

I haven't heard one conservative who believes this liberal stunt will do anything but gain votes for Bush.

They will simply be forced into a camp by the liberal 'protests' and disruptive behavior.

When you watch a sporting event--you may be cheering one team--but when they cheat, or spit on the opposing team, or punch their mascot--your feelings change.

The Dems have always been their own worst enemy.

And, for that, I thank you.

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Heh. You're welcome - it's the only thing keeping your side in the game at this point, really.

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I haven't heard one conservative who believes this liberal stunt will do anything but gain votes for Bush.

That's because they are CONSERVATIVES. Of COURSE they believe that.

Cycloptichorn

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Don't you think if they didn't believe it, they'd be crusading from the rooftops to stop the protests...or at least complaining loudly...?

They're all saying, "Bring it on. Don't forget your butt-cut-outs! Burn some flags, and have plenty of Bush/Hitler placards..."

These wacko libs are playing to themselves--not the undecideds, which plays to the Undecideds for US. And, causing such a headache for the NY cops... again, not a plus for the law-abiding Undecideds.

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Wrong again. Many of the 'undecideds' are not just undecided amongst Bush, and Kerry, but also for Nader as well.

Large, sucessful protests can serve as a catalyst for outsider groups to band together to accomplish a cause. I think the image of many different protesters, all united in their dislike for the policies of Bush and the republicans, will present a stirring image to those Nader supporters.

The truth is, you don't know who the undecideds are leaning towards any more than anyone else does. Polls are of limited usefulness; they do not always accurately reflect how people vote.

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They're all saying, "Bring it on. Don't forget your butt-cut-outs! Burn some flags, and have plenty of Bush/Hitler placards..."

These wacko libs are playing to themselves

So what if they are? There are a lot of people (myself included) who feel that protest is appropriate, not because it will sway anyone else's views, but it is an ancient and respected way of voicing one's opposition to a certain policy.

You don't protest to get votes. You protest because you believe it is the patriotic thing to do. That's what you don't get.

Cycloptichorn

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I do get it.

And, I believe that the protests and disruptions will backlash against the libs.

That may be the part you don't get.

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I believe it may backlash. There certainly exists the possiblity of it doing so. I just don't think it will. So, we'll have to happily disagree and discuss this again a week from today, when it will be much more interesting Smile

Cheers

Cycloptichorn

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Agreed. We'll have to check the pudding... Smile

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Joe Nation wrote:

Quote:
In any case, there is a difference between protest and disruption. If the activity is restricted to peaceful protest, then I have no problem with it.

All the while praying there is enough violence so he can say "See?"

That's quite unkind. Crying or Very sad

I have no desire to see my beloved NYC trashed, as was Seattle, by a bunch of neo-anarchists, eco-terrorists and leftist wilders.

However, I do believe there are those that hope there will be enough violence to draw in the police so that pictures of riot squad cops clubbing young people with batons can fly throughout the world.

Although I would never suggest you were one of them Joe.

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Finn wrote:

Quote:

However, I do believe there are those that hope there will be enough violence to draw in the police so that pictures of riot squad cops clubbing young people with batons can fly throughout the world.

Although I would never suggest you were one of them Joe.

But I am not the shy one here, I see you there in big D, biting your lip, hoping for things to go badly, why don't you just come clean and admit it?
It's not like your reputation is going to suffer. Smile

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Joe Nation wrote:
Quote:
In any case, there is a difference between protest and disruption. If the activity is restricted to peaceful protest, then I have no problem with it.

All the while praying there is enough violence so he can say "See?"

That's quite unkind.

I have no desire to see my beloved NYC trashed, as was Seattle, by a bunch of neo-anarchists, eco-terrorists and leftist wilders.

However, I do believe there are those that hope there will be enough violence to draw in the police so that pictures of riot squad cops clubbing young people with batons can fly throughout the world.

Although I would never suggest you were one of them Joe.

<ahem> The trashing of Seattle was wildly over-reported. A few windows smashed and mostly it seemed to be by the same four or five individuals, at least one of whom was a girl. There were a lot of scary people in the street....

http://www.geocities.com/buckguinn/wto.JPG

I still have my WTO dollar.

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Please don't distract Finn by reporting facts, if he wants to believe Seattle was trashed, then bygod he gets to.

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Joe Nation wrote:

But I am not the shy one here, I see you there in big D, biting your lip, hoping for things to go badly, why don't you just come clean and admit it?

Because it's simply not true Joe.

If the police have to wade in with full riot gear it paints a bad picture for America, NYC, and the GOP (even though they will have nothing to do with it). It will also likely to end up with some foolish young people being injured. Possibly even some police. Who might wish for that? Not I.

Joe wrote:

It's not like your reputation is going to suffer.

Whatever my reputation may be with you and my other liberal friends, I wear it as a badge of honor. Cool

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Joe Nation wrote:

Please don't distract Finn by reporting facts, if he wants to believe Seattle was trashed, then bygod he gets to.

Yes, how can I possibly even attempt to contradict the Piffka News Agency and it's litany of indisputable facts.

Here's all I could find to substantiate my claim:

"What could become the biggest part of the cost for Seattle's hosting of the WTO has yet to be assessed though. As of January 25th the city was facing 27 different damage claims (one as high as $68 million). Those filing for damages include protestors beaten and abused by police, local citizens and shoppers gassed, shot with rubber bullets, shoved, kicked and otherwise harassed, and local retailers losing approximately $17 million in sales revenue and $2.5 million in damages from activists trashing their stores. Suffice it to say, Seattle will not be hosting a meeting such as this again anytime soon!"

Source

"As a result, WTO delegates were placed at risk, the meeting was disrupted, violence spilled out of downtown into the residential Capitol Hill neighborhood, downtown businesses sustained more than $2 million in damage and the city's retail core lost millions more dollars from lost sales at the height of the Christmas shopping season."

source

"Seattle residents asked why such violence and destruction had occurred in their normally peaceful city. Early reports suggested that property damage was $2.5 million (Flores, 1999). More recently, downtown businesses claim they lost $20 million in sales and property damage (Brunner, 2000). One ransacked Starbuck store incurred $15,000 in damages, mostly due to broken windows and looted merchandise (Fryer, 2000)."

source

Nope. Piffka is right. It was only a few broken windows caused by four of five people (one even a girl!)

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The facts are that a very small area of the city of Seattle was involved. Nobody died. No one was seriously hurt. Seattle is still there and things were back to normal in a week. It was not much different from a Fat Tuesday celebration.

Those wide-eyed estimates are wonderfully good at making sure that everyone gets a pile of money, after. It is also an exciting way to get people upset.

There were lots and lots of people marching in Seattle because they didn't think the WTO was doing them any good. They think it is an organization to perpetuate the wealth of those who are already wealthy. It was a way for the otherwise unrepresented majority to show that WTO isn't welcome in Seattle.

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Piffka wrote:

The facts are that a very small area of the city of Seattle was involved. Nobody died. No one was seriously hurt. Seattle is still there and things were back to normal in a week. It was not much different from a Fat Tuesday celebration.

Those wide-eyed estimates are wonderfully good at making sure that everyone gets a pile of money, after. It is also an exciting way to get people upset.

There were lots and lots of people marching in Seattle because they didn't think the WTO was doing them any good. They think it is an organization to perpetuate the wealth of those who are already wealthy. It was a way for the otherwise unrepresented majority to show that WTO isn't welcome in Seattle.

The comment was "Seattle was trashed."

The last time I looked, the definition of "trashed" didn't include deaths and serious injuries. However, a minimum of $2.5 million in damages would seem to qualify for a "trashing."

Perhaps the Piffka News Agency might offer facts rather than opinion.

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Facts from someone who was there, for example?

NYC will be lucky if it fares no worse than Seattle.

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