40
   

I'll Never Vote for Hillary Clinton

 
 
Blickers
 
  2  
Sat 7 May, 2016 08:57 pm
@edgarblythe,
Just saw your post. I am not wrong.
Quote Edgar:
Quote:
In Florida, CNN’s exit polling showed Nader taking the same amount of votes from both Republicans and Democrats: 1 percent. Nader also took 4 percent of the independent vote.


Here are the tallies:
Bush....2,912,790
Gore....2,912,253
Nader.......97,488
Bush wins Florida by 537 votes.

"About 1% of the vote" for both Bush and Gore doesn't mean much when Nader's entire vote total is only 1.6% of the votes cast. Bush's margin of victory was 0.009% of the vote. You have to narrow it down.

The polls about the second choice of the Nader voters were taken before Election Day. And my post even allowed that as many as half might stay home. But my post also shows that if half of the Nader voters stayed home, and the polled percentages of the second choice for Nader voters were applied to the half of the Nader voters who do vote, Gore still wins by 29,000 votes in Florida. The numbers might vary slightly, but the point is that Nader's running absolutely made the difference in Florida, which made the difference in the election.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Sat 7 May, 2016 09:05 pm
My post proves beyond a doubt that Gore can blame nobody but Gore. And I don't recall him saying otherwise.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Sat 7 May, 2016 09:15 pm
Here is a story I read when it was still new.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1321720/Gore-blamed-Clinton-for-his-defeat-in-election.html

BILL CLINTON and Al Gore clashed in a "tense and blunt" showdown when they argued over the reasons for the former vice-president's defeat in last November's presidential election, it emerged yesterday.
Mr Gore "forcefully" blamed the former president for his loss, saying that the Monica Lewinsky sex scandal and the low esteem in which voters held Mr Clinton had proved serious obstacles to his campaign. But in the stormy White House confrontation, thought to have taken place between the end of the post-election drama on Dec 12 and Christmas Day, Mr Clinton replied equally strongly, according to friends, telling Mr Gore that he would have won if he had run on the Democrats' successful record in office.
The two, whose relationship has been very difficult since the Lewinsky affair and the impeachment that followed it, had their showdown alone inside the White House and it lasted for more than an hour. According to a Gore aide, the discussion was "cathartic", while a Clinton friend called it "tense". Another source who knows both told the Washington Post that the tone of the conversation was "very, very blunt". The newspaper said that while the former vice-president's friends called the meeting "very constructive", the Clinton side saw it as a much angrier event in which Mr Gore laid bare a simmering resentment of his former boss.
During the election campaign, tensions arose regularly between the Clinton White House and the Gore campaign, with Mr Clinton wondering openly why Mr Gore was not making more of the successes of the administration and using the president in campaigning. Mr Clinton said on one occasion that he was ready to rescue the struggling Gore effort. One senior Democrat said the tension between the two men, openly friendly at events such as the party convention in Los Angeles or at the launch of the Gore campaign, "was far worse than anyone knew".
Many Clinton supporters believe that the vice-president had a mental block about the man he was trying to succeed in the White House, making it clear he was uncomfortable with any level of involvement by the president in his campaign. Tipper Gore, the candidate's wife, was said to be particularly angry with Mr Clinton's "betrayal".
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The post-mortem examination on Mr Gore's defeat, which is seeping out piecemeal through leaks to newspapers, is in danger of splitting the Democratic party because senior officials have lined up behind one man or the other. Carter Eskew, a Gore campaign consultant, wrote a newspaper article describing Mr Clinton as "the elephant in the living room" which prevented the vice-president from making a case for his candidacy.
But a Clinton supporter - one of many angered by the article - responded yesterday that the president had nothing to do with Mr Gore's poor performance in the presidential debates with George W Bush. Mr Clinton's continued presence on the political scene, both in his own right and as the husband of Hillary, a newly elected senator, has made it more difficult for Mr Gore to open his heart about the election defeat.
There is still speculation that Mr Gore may run again in 2004, but many will have to work hard to mend his relations with Mr Clinton because the former president could still be the party's kingmaker in three years' time.
On Tuesday, Mr Gore had an understated beginning to his new career as a journalism teacher, banning the press from attending his first class at Columbia University in New York.
ehBeth
 
  4  
Sat 7 May, 2016 09:22 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

My post proves beyond a doubt that Gore can blame nobody but Gore. And I don't recall him saying otherwise.


edgarblythe wrote:

Here is a story I read when it was still new.

Mr Gore "forcefully" blamed the former president for his loss,


that's an interesting circle to square

__

this ties into Mrs. Clinton's run for the nomination ... ?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Sat 7 May, 2016 09:31 pm
@ehBeth,
Don't blame me. Blame revelette.
revelette2
 
  1  
Sun 8 May, 2016 07:15 am
This whole argument of Gore/Nader boils down both sides using it justify their stances if Trump gets elected president. The bernieorbust side lining up their future arguments of a Trump presidency. To my mind their argument is silly no matter how you look at it. If you don't vote for Hillary, she gets less votes than Trump, it is that simple. If it comes down to a close race, those votes end up meaning the difference between winning and loosing. The same went for Gore, no matter the reason why, those votes that didn't go to Gore, meant Gore had less votes on is side so Bush won. It's not rocket science to figure that out.
Blickers
 
  2  
Sun 8 May, 2016 08:06 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote edgar:
Quote:
Don't blame me. Blame revelette.

I blame you. Always. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  5  
Sun 8 May, 2016 08:26 am
@edgarblythe,
At the moment, I have not located the polls that showed an 80/20 split for Gore among the Nader voters. However, a 2006 study by Herron and Lewis ascribed a 60/40 split for Gore over Bush as a second choice among Nader voters. This was a result not of polls, but of an exhaustive analysis of down-ballot voting, probably more accurate than just a poll. Building upon previous studies of major third party candidates, using advanced statistical analysis of partisanship and other measures, they arrived at the following conclusions:

1. "This is because, to put it simply, Nader and Buchanan voters were not strong Democratic or Republican partisans, respectively. Only approximately 60% of Nader voters would have supported
Al Gore in a Nader-less election."

2. "In fact, the total Nader swing away fromGore is 10,117 votes (this combines election day and absentee allocations), meaning that Gore lost
only slightly more than ten thousand votes in our ten counties due to Nader’s candidacy."

Gore eventually lost Florida by 537 votes. Even if you take into account that the recount could have been done differently, (CI brought up a number of perhaps 2,200 votes were in question), there is no conclusion possible but that Nader's running delivered Florida to Bush, and Florida's electoral votes delivered the US Electoral College to Bush. It is irrelevant if a better campaign by Gore could have won more states anyway-Florida was where the presidency went to Bush.

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/lewis/pdf/greenreform9.pdf
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Sun 8 May, 2016 09:31 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
The same went for Gore, no matter the reason why, those votes that didn't go to Gore, meant Gore had less votes on is side so Bush won. It's not rocket science to figure that out.

Gore lost the 2000 election because he ran an epically bad campaign. Nader had nothing to do with that. In the end, Gore failed to convince enough voters that he was the best choice. And if Clinton loses to Trump, it will be because she didn't convince enough voters that she was the best choice.
natturner
 
  4  
Sun 8 May, 2016 10:22 am
@joefromchicago,
But didn't Gore end up with half a million more popular votes than Bush?
revelette2
 
  6  
Sun 8 May, 2016 10:24 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Gore lost the 2000 election because he ran an epically bad campaign. Nader had nothing to do with that. In the end, Gore failed to convince enough voters that he was the best choice. And if Clinton loses to Trump, it will be because she didn't convince enough voters that she was the best choice.


Forgive me what difference does it make the reason why he lost then or she might loose now? To my mind it is a difference without a discernable distinction since the results will be disastrous the same as it was under Bush with the Iraq war and a new definition of torture and so forth. Most important of all is the supreme court pick. Trying to even imagine a supreme court justice Donald Trump would think suitable boggles my mind. These issues last long after their terms as presidents do as we have seen with the Bush president. The choice for presidency is bigger than Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. Sander would have no chance as president if republicans actually thought he was a choice but they have and still do not think he will be. Every time they talk about the "other side" they mention beating Hillary. Never do they mention beating Sanders. If they did, they unleash a ton of bad negative stuff on Sanders which would turn the current polls of who would best go against Trump on it's head.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Sun 8 May, 2016 10:29 am
It will be a disaster of varying proportions, if either Clinton or Trump gets elected. Got four years to learn how disastrous.
revelette2
 
  4  
Sun 8 May, 2016 10:40 am
@edgarblythe,
Ok, I get you. I see it as a choice of lesser evils and hope many come to the same conclusion.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Sun 8 May, 2016 10:46 am
@revelette2,
Excellent summary.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Sun 8 May, 2016 10:52 am
@revelette2,
That's how you people want all of us to see it. But, as I have already posted on a2k, the days of being herded into voting for the lesser of two evils has got to end someday. For me it is right now.

That's how they get their way. Toss a token or two to the base, use the lesser of two evils argument, then proceed to ignore you until the next election. That's an unsustainable system.
revelette2
 
  3  
Sun 8 May, 2016 10:56 am
@edgarblythe,
I know you have said this, repeatedly. If I responded yet again, I would be once again repeating myself. I think you are wrong, you think I am wrong. I hope in the end, more voters come to same conclusion as I have for the same reason or just because they think Hillary will actually be a good president. As you said you live Texas, the chances of your vote making a difference is actually small. The same with me in my state (in the general at least) of KY. My state will probably go Trump big time.
0 Replies
 
natturner
 
  2  
Sun 8 May, 2016 11:09 am
@edgarblythe,
It sounds like you think its a conscious concerted conspiracy that netted us Trump and Clinton.
Blickers
 
  6  
Sun 8 May, 2016 11:12 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote joefromchicago:
Quote:
Gore lost the 2000 election because he ran an epically bad campaign. Nader had nothing to do with that.

His campaign, despite whatever flaws it might have had, was good enough to win the presidency if Nader had not decided to run. Nader had over 97,000 votes in Florida, Gore lost in a recount run by a Republican by 537 votes. That's the story.

If you need more info, Herron and Lewis have done a study using stringent examination of down-ballot voting patterns and which is double checked by various methods more accurate than mere exit polling, and it showed Nader took over 10,000 votes away from Gore in Florida. Common sense and exhaustive review of the facts point to the same conclusion, in this case.
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/lewis/pdf/greenreform9.pdf
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Sun 8 May, 2016 12:19 pm
@natturner,
The system has been doing this a lot longer than this election. For the first time in a long time, there is a grass roots move to change the system. The question is, will it be changed by Trump or by liberals (progressives). Clinton is seeking to preserve it practically as is.
natturner
 
  2  
Sun 8 May, 2016 12:26 pm
@edgarblythe,
I hear you. I just get a little nervous when someone starts talking about "the system" as if it's a sentient being whose brain looks like a bunch of old white men smoking cigars and plotting in a private room.
 

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