Hawkeye's Final Thread

Meantime, looking for the Rape thread, I couldn't quickly find it.

Me, I don't know enough about who Hawkeye is.

As a woman who was once long ago raped, changed my young life, I'm not a fan. He seems to have issues, as they call it.

Theme song:

Bye Felicia

It has been suggested that izzythepush is now suspended, perhaps for attacks made against BillRM in the past.

Perhaps if Hawkeye submitted abuse reports for the most egregious attacks that were made against him in the past, they would be acted upon.

At any rate, I hope he returns after the suspension expires.

I think I saw reference to a recent post by izzythepush.

I have no way of knowing how accurate this is, but, if true, it would just be another instance of a phenomenon I have often seen before. Person A, with a hostility towards person B, will "bait" B into saying something which A will wrench from context and call a "slur," then complain to admins about it.

This just recently happened to me, in fact. Robert reviewed the evidence (which I myself had to provide in response to allegations which were unsubstantiated and conclusory in nature) and saw that, in context, my words could not objectively be said to have been intended as a slur, notwithstanding the insinuation to the contrary by the complaining party.

As Hawkeye himself notes, there is no requirement that a website owner be fair or reasonable. That said, if they want to claim to be, or give the appearance of being, fair, then an opportunity to defend oneself should be mandatory, in my book. It's far too easy to pull a Marion Barry on an enemy, ya know?



Law and obligation aside, it is a notion of fundamental fairness that a person is entitled to be informed of the charges against him, be allowed to confront the witnesses against him, and be allowed to explain the circumstances of the alleged or apparent "crime" before being "convicted" of it, ya know?

With Hawkeye, you could tell him that something he wrote was bang out of order until you were blue in the face and after twelve pages of to and fro, he would still be utterly convinced that he was the only person in the crowd who was right.


I am convinced that he came onto A2K to ONLY rile and then argue/snipe.


Well done Robert.

I have decided not to attempt to consolidate or summarize the remainder of hawkeye's letter. I have, as before, edited it for language usage.

Part Two

But sadly there is an even bigger problem; I was here for the combat of ideas and to compare notes, and while the morality problems of the site owner and the morality problems of the site users has now been the final straw in discontinuing my desire to be a content provider here the increasingly lack of quality content here is a dead sure deal breaker. Talking about ideas requires the presence of people who can both think for themselves as well as express themselves, and comparing notes works a lot better when I can meet up with smart people who are not like me who also can express themselves. Since I was not here for the sport of bashing people and I was not here to hear the latests attempts to regurgitate what the elite claim as the conventional wisdom the quality of the content is much diminished over the years. Sometimes I think it might be me but then some thread from long ago will be brought to the top, often by a spammer, and I read some of the old stuff. Ya, it is not me. Most of the women are gone. 90+ of the fun people are gone. For me A2K barely works anymore, there just is not enough quality to make wading through the **** worth it, something that I know hundreds before me were thinking as they left. F--- it.

A great deal of my time of late has been spent fending off abuse, and much of the rest has been trying to put up 20 or more posts a day of interesting content so that maybe we could keep the combat of ideas going. Sure it was often provocative but I have always been very clear about why I did it, getting the blood flowing to the brain, enticing people to speak up even if emotionally so that ideas can be talked about, so that differing opinions can become known rather than hidden. but it was often a slog. There really are not that many original thinkers in the mainstream media either, the deprivation is not just at A2K, so when I see something of sound argument outside of conventional wisdom on the internet I am interested, and I always hope that others will be interested as well. Sometimes I got some takers. but most of the time not.

And for damn sure Robert did not appreciate all the great content that I wrote for his site, which helped with the search engines glomming onto the place and then directing new blood here. It should have helped to get better content and get better debate over time but it did not work because A2K is such a nasty place with not enough good content worth digging to find. I can put up with the assholes just fine and to be honest I sometimes enjoy a good barfight with idiot drunks, but that and inane content is not enough to keep me here, which is a good deal of what A2K has to offer now, and I dont have any hope that things will get substantially better not that it would have changed anything because the lack of justice at A2k and particularly in my suspension is a deal breaker.

I want to clear up one thing for Robert and for anyone else who is as confused as he is….everything I have said has been said from either a belief in my knowledge of where reality exists or was an attempt to tease out where reality exists. I come from people who speak openly and honestly, I don't believe that speaking words should ever be a crime, I am viscerally opposed to political correctness, and when I say that I support Donald Trump for instance and write 2000 words detailing 30 reasons why I like Donald Trump you can take it to the bank that I like Donald Trump. I have always been clear on such matters. This not believing what I say, this ridiculous idea that I was spending 8 years here writing 36,000 posts because I crave attention is an asshole move. I said why I do it, I said it many times, and what I said makes sense as opposed to the crazy idea that it was an act or a game. As for me ranting off stuff like “ you know that stupid motherf--k Obama today…” , that’s just how I talk. I one of the little people, extensively self educated but without the spit and polish of those c—sk-ers the elite, those who lie to us and can’t hardly ever seem to be able to get their jobs done well. I am from the streets like Trump, we got no time for that game of the elite, acting all nicey nicey as they bury that knife deep into our backs. This hysterical backlash to me was was on the part of the disbelievers a defense mechanism, the one we see all the time at A2K from the weak and the stupid, this constantly labeling what they don't want to deal with (or can't deal with, who can know) trash so that they don't feel the need to deal with it. So that their cherished beliefs are not threatened. That is how we get Dear Leader Robert searching through my 36,000 posts looking for an excuse to throw me out…. this weakness on his part as well as on the part of the mob that he has let rampage here for years with their constant personal invective as they endeavor to shut down and drive away what they don't want in their environment. . We can'thave their egos threatened, ya know? Generally I have a willingness to put up with this kind of crap because I know that many people are not particularly evolved or self aware, they have a hard time doing better and I find it a good idea to try to take people as I find them, but it really is a drag. THose who can do better should try to do better. But ya, you got me, (here he explains that his tolerance for a certain sexual act that is unnatural to many but preferred by some has reached its limit )

For the present I can be found over at Debate Politics. I am giving the place a test drive and so far I believe that I have moved to a better venue. But it is still early. Anyone taking a look will see that I am writing the same kind of content that I did for A2K. We shall see if my brand a truth telling works long term there, but it should put to bed once and for all Roberts lunacy that I was hurting his site for attention. I say the same things over there as I always have at A2K, only I don't get constantly personally attacked over there, at least so far. More ideas, less drama, less injustice. That suits me.

And finally, while I was never here to make friends, and I was always clear about that (not being especially friendly was a good clue) , I have watched a great many smart and interesting people flow through A2K over the years. To those people thank you very much. I may never have spoken with you or I may have always been arguing with you, but know that you have enriched my life. I particularly have enjoyed the people who are smart but a lot different than me, and the ones who challenged my points of view and ideas. I always want to put my ideas and arguments against the best. That is how I get better, and I always love quality. Unlike many who only say the right words I actually enjoy diversity, to include diversity of opinions. For a long time we had that here in spite of the liberal elite mob that was sure that they were operating with Roberts blessings as they worked diligently to shut down diversity at A2K.

Steve Cobb
Olympia Wa

(Steve has provided an e-mail address, but I thought it prudent to withhold it. If you would like to contact him, please send me a PM and I will provide you with it -Finn)

I found his posts too distasteful to read, most of the time.

In another thread, Engineer wrote:



I agree and, in fact, recently wrote much the same in one of the threads dedicated to the pending revision of the A2K format.

Hawkeye was always a bit full of himself (a common trait here) and I think this is reflected in his comments about providing A2K with fabulous content, however it can't be denied that could be relied upon to frequently launch threads that resulted in a lot of good discussion. Unfortunately they also launched a barrage of the same tired attacks against him from the usual suspects. If you read his posts from that last few weeks prior to his suspension you should be able to note a change in his attitude towards attacks. While prior to this time he could be counted on to vigorously respond to one and all, towards the end of his stay here I, at least, could tell that something had changed. He had grown tired of them and was far less keen to respond to them.

We might wonder why the people who apparently detested him so much didn't just put him on ignore and stay clear of him. It would seem to have been the sensible approach to take, however, in reality, these folks (and we all know who they are) were drawn to his threads like moths to a flame. They couldn't and didn't resist an opportunity to call him names, tell him what a moron they thought he was or to insinuate all sorts of things about him being a rapist, a apologist for rape, or even someone who approved of his children being molested. These are serious charges and, if they are not true, despicably scurrilous. I don't recall seeing anything that would indicate that any of these charges are true, but it is, unfortunately, a common tactic here to twist someone's words to allow for the worst possible interpretation and then proceed to pass that interpretation off as the truth. Such antics appear to have gotten izzy suspended and if so, it was high time. It was Hawkeye's way to be provocative. I suspect that he believes he took this way to stimulate debate and improve content and to some extent he did, but there was something else driving that behavior. In any case, by taking things to the edge to provoke responses he opened himself up to the cheap and tawdry game that too many play here.

As for the offense that resulted in his suspension, if what he has written is correct (that the offending post was written more than 2 years before his suspension) then I have to say the action taken is deeply troubling. Of course we don't know and are likely to never know because Robert has decided, as is his right, to not offer any additional explanation for the action. Right now I am a bit confused as to what Robert's intentions have been or will be in terms of allowing a suspended member to "appeal" their "punishment," but he has indicated, at least once, that he will not entertain appeals. Again, it's his right, but this doesn't seem like an appropriate course to take and is likely to insure that people who are suspended will never return. I certainly understand his unwillingness to engage in a protracted back and forth with someone who has been suspended, but it's easy to misinterpret comments if they are taken out of context, and I would think for the sake of accuracy, Robert should be willing to allow a suspended member to at least offer an explanation of the context in which the offense was committed.

Those of is who watch sports on TV are well aware that it is often the player who retaliates who receives the penalty because the official has missed the original foul that sparked an incident. This can easily happen here as well. I don't know whether or not hawkeye's claims about threats from the group with which he was engaged in the thread that led to his suspension are true, but having had run-ins with these folks myself, it doesn't stretch credulity to believe that he is, at least to some extent, telling the truth. For all I know, Robert recognized this and handed out additional suspensions, but honestly, I doubt it. Again we will never know unless those people come forward. Constant and determined provocation by one or more members who themselves sink to an uncivil level does not excuse certain offenses, but for the sake of fairness and the quality of this forum, their behavior should be objectively considered as well.

It is clear that there was personal animosity between hawkeye and Robert, but I'm certainly not prepared to accept hawkeye's claim that his suspension was part of a vendetta. Robert may have taken the opportunity to put an annoyance aside for a time, but hawkeye handed him the means. No slur involving sexual orientation and no opportunity. You can't break someone's jaw and then expect to get away from prosecution for assault by arguing "He had it coming." The rest of the people in the bar at the time may agree, but the law can't.

Finally, we may also wonder why hawkeye, himself, didn't simply ignore the usual suspect who constantly surrounded him like jackals. Most of us know it's not that easy. As the originator of his threads, hawkeye may have felt an obligation to respond to posts made. I know I do. However there always was a point beyond which that obligation ended, and still hawkeye engaged. Lash recently made a comment in a thread that I think accurately explains the dilemma one faces when coming under constant and low minded attacks: One can refuse to respond and watch someone repeatedly impugn one's character, or respond in kind. Neither provides any sort of satisfaction and most of the people who regularly post here are hardwired to respond to attacks. Ignoring assholes and reporting the abuse may be the best way to approach the problem, but that's not as easy as it sounds, and it, of course, requires a responsive monitor accepting and acting on the report of abuse.

Finally, I think hawkeye has gone over the top in criticizing the current quality of the discourse in this forum. It has suffered over the years and we have lost members who helped raise it, but there remains not only intelligent discussions, but the potential for many more, with or without a change in membership. I for one will miss hawkeye's involvement here and unless someone picks up the slack in terms of starting new threads, I think, to one extent or the other, we all will. Clearly there is a lot of anger and frustration being expressed in his letter, but it's not a bad idea for us to try and filter that out and consider what, if any, valid points he has made.

Hawkees writing sounds like some kind of a manifesto from Ted Kazynski .

This site is better now. We are seeing a cautious return of some challenging and interesting posters. I hope that trend continues.

I mistakenly made this post in the "milita takeover" thread, when I intended it here. That's OK, though. It fits there just as well. Not sayin it "fits" either, but...

Tales from the Hackneyed Demagogue: "Therefore, history is evil"

https://www.hackcanada.com/canadian/zines/spacemoose/demagogue.gif

yeh, ya know?? Maybe well even see Joe Watzisname from New Yawk.

Howbout Endymion?

We got Edgar back ( we hadda swap a Frankie an Hawkee for Ed and two pitchers to be named later)

(I think) I understand what Hawkeye is sayin about "original thoughts," but I wouldn't put it that way. There are no "original" thoughts anymore.

I might say "independent thought," though. It seems like much that is said here is mainly an expression of some kind of group identity, be it atheist, religious, liberal, conservative, neo-darwinist, creationist, or whatever.

There is far more assertion and mindless defense of positions here than there is honest, open discussion from what I see. Most aren't here to "exchange" ideas--they often seem more like people seeking confirmation of their biases.

I think about Endy a lot. I miss him.

Endy's was an ultra sensitive soul. He was a talented writer and young enough to produce a body of work. I hope he is working on that.

I think that there is another aspect here concerning Hawkeye. I think he really loved this place. He often bemoaned the loss of posters and if you read the first several pages of Robert's A2K sucks thread, you can see that he was really engaged. He wanted to make things better and bring people back. Honestly, I think he was happy to see Robert again (less so when his suggestions were poorly received.) He often commented how amazed he was that he could bring up the topics he did and not get banned. We talk about people who just come here to make wise-ass remarks or to bait people, but Hawkeye wasn't one of those people. Some of his positions (ok, most of them) were out there, but he really came here to debate and if you look at his posting history, he spent a lot of time here. We disagreed on just about every issue and I seriously doubt that I ever changed his mind on any given topic but I never lobbed a personal insult at him and no matter how much we disagreed, he never lobbed one back. I too noticed that his postings over the last year got much more strident, especially around the rise of Trump and Putin, but I think he always saw A2K as a safe space to share his opinions. When I read his "manifesto" I see someone who feels betrayed by something he loved.