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Open Thread - Politics Plus

 
 
Kolyo
 
  5  
Reply Sat 30 Jan, 2016 11:56 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Yes but Bloomberg will be a problem for Clinton too.


I'm pretty sure he'll only enter the race if Sanders gets the nomination. Bloomberg and Clinton are so alike in their views that he would see no point in running against her.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Sun 31 Jan, 2016 04:27 am
@Kolyo,
Quote:

I'm pretty sure he'll only enter the race if Sanders gets the nomination. Bloomberg and Clinton are so alike in their views that he would see no point in running against her.

Don't be so sure. If Bloomberg concludes that Cliton is weak and unelectable, he might run against her.

Bottom line for me is: Sanders is a better candidate than Clinton. The contrast with Trump is clear in his case, less clear in Clinton's case. Also she's got way too much dirty laundery and a very checkered voting record.

Let Bloomberg make his own decisions. The dem primary voters don't need to factor that in.
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Sun 31 Jan, 2016 01:13 pm
@Olivier5,
Bloomberg has no organization established for a run whereas the others have been building their's up for a year or far longer. So besides from a run against Hillary being the stupidest waste of money, there's no indication he'll run against her. And the notion that Hillary is unelectable is some sort of weird hope not reflected in polling. Sheesh.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2016 04:49 am
@blatham,
No need to get all "sheeshy" on me. You and I are just observers in this race. And all I am saying is that Sanders is electable, given the likely opponent (Cruz or Trump).
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2016 09:28 am
@Olivier5,
I have four "sheesh"s allocated each day. If, towards the end of the day, I haven't used them all up, then I toss them out at random. This is a budget maintenance allocation system I've borrowed from the Pentagon.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2016 09:33 am
@blatham,
Well then, I'm honored to be at the receiving end of your sheesh excretion system...
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2016 12:00 pm
I wonder where coldjoint went?????
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2016 01:07 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Quote:
I wonder where coldjoint went?????

His name would logically suggest it was somewhere warm and dry. But as logical isn't really his thing...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2016 09:15 pm
@blatham,
Thanks for my laugh for today.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2016 10:17 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:
His name would logically suggest it was somewhere warm and dry. But as logical isn't really his thing...

Considering your pathetic attempt to pretend to be an intellectual, you really shouldn't be running around making false accusations about other people's mental prowess.

At any rate, the Iowa results are in, and it looks like I was right about Rubio getting the nomination. It's his to lose at this point.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2016 11:37 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Bloomberg has no organization established for a run whereas the others have been building their's up for a year or far longer. So besides from a run against Hillary being the stupidest waste of money, there's no indication he'll run against her. And the notion that Hillary is unelectable is some sort of weird hope not reflected in polling. Sheesh.
I would agree with that, but without the "Shessh".

Despite all the Bernie hype and real enthusiasm, I still can't see him winning the Democrat nomination.

That said I still see some real possibility the Hillary could become seriously or even fatally damaged by some new revelation or leaks from investigating agencies (I see little likelihood that the Obama Administration would allow an indictment of her except in some sertious duress.). In addition, I believe she could be beaten in the election by one or two of the Republican candidates (depending on who is selected) and that she runs some serious risks of faltering or coming out with yet another whopper in the final campaign against any determined opponent - she just isn't that good with people (condescending and patronizing) and serious challenges don't appear to bring out her best qualities.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2016 02:49 pm
I ran into a new site to me, and haven't read about it but the promo in the Daily Beast and haven't listened yet at all; the premise is interesting at least.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/02/videographer-puts-israelis-and-arabs-on-the-spot.html

I won't copy all the Daily Beast piece, not that it is very long; just a clip to give the idea -

ADAM GRANNICK
INTERLOCUTOR02.02.16 3:30 AM ET

Videographer Puts Israelis and Arabs on the Spot
Canadian-Israeli Corey Gil-Shuster has posted more than 400 videos on YouTube in which he puts tough questions to both Israelis and Palestinians
Can you get a better idea of someone’s humanity by listening to everything they have to say, no matter how offensive or discouraging it is to you? The Canadian-Israeli videographer Corey Gil-Shuster, creator of the Ask an Israeli / Ask a Palestinian webseries, believes you can.

Like many, Gil-Shuster is tired of the endless online battles between supporters of Israel and supporters of Palestine. He’s particularly weary of the way people on both sides of the conflict perpetually post a barrage of viral images, stories, and videos to “use” against the other side, “because somehow we have to win this virtual war as a reflection of the real war,” he says. “It really is ridiculous.”

His initiative: creating a YouTube series that breaks through traditional narratives and assumptions by demanding that everyday Israelis and Palestinians answer tough questions. These questions come not from him but from people all over the world.

“People would make claims [online], and I’d say, ‘Look, can I turn that into a question and then go ask people, so you can know?’”
Since he started the series three years ago, Gil-Shuster has amassed more than 400 videos, pulling everyday people aside and asking them others’ questions, including the following:
• Israelis/Palestinians: What do you think of gay people?
• Israelis: When an Israeli soldier does something immoral to an Arab, does it erode Israel's claim to be moral?
• Palestinians: Will you share Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount with Jews?
• Israelis: What do you think of settlers forcing Palestinians out of their homes in East Jerusalem?
• Palestinians: What do you know about the Holocaust?
• Israeli Jews: What do you think about the Palestinian right of return?
• Palestinians: What concessions do Palestinians need to make for peace?
Some of the videos are humorous, too:
• Why did the Israelis steal hummus from the Arabs?

The questions come from YouTube comments left on past videos, from Facebook posts, and from emails. Some are attempts to truly understand the other side, while some are what Gil-Shuster calls “set-up questions,” where one side requests that a question be asked of the other side in order to bring bigoted views to light, and make them look bad on purpose.

He’s even willing to ask a question when he's uncomfortable with that question or when he doesn’t personally believe the things he’s asking, because his goal is to find out what people actually think, rather than prove any kind of point.
According to Gil-Shuster’s self-imposed set of rules, everything he films—start to finish, with no edits—must appear in his videos. This way, he says, he can prevent viewers from jumping to conclusions about whether he’s cherry-picking his footage in order to take a specific stance. Even without any edits, Gil-Shuster says, “some people assume, depending on the video, that I’m anti-Israeli or pro-Israeli, or anti-Palestinian or pro-Palestinian. Each time it’s different.”
end/clip

Any here read it yet?
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2016 04:32 pm
@ossobuco,
I don't think there is any question but that the Palestinians and their supporters are irredeemably evil.

As far as the "virtual war" goes, when I hear the Palestinian side spout their horrible false accusations about Israel, I just dismiss it all as anti-Semitism and move on to the next post, but I suppose there is merit in the view that such lies should be challenged.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  4  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 03:29 pm
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/01/the-great-republican-revolt/419118/

Quote:
The GOP planned a dynastic restoration in 2016. Instead, it triggered an internal class war. Can the party reconcile the demands of its donors with the interests of its rank and file?


David Frum

Quote:
The angriest and most pessimistic people in America are the people we used to call Middle Americans. Middle-class and middle-aged; not rich and not poor; people who are irked when asked to press 1 for English, and who wonder how white male became an accusation rather than a description.

You can measure their pessimism in polls that ask about their expectations for their lives—and for those of their children. On both counts, whites without a college degree express the bleakest view. You can see the effects of their despair in the new statistics describing horrifying rates of suicide and substance-abuse fatality among this same group, in middle age.


<snip snip>

Quote:
These populists seek to defend what the French call “acquired rights”—health care, pensions, and other programs that benefit older people—against bankers and technocrats who endlessly demand austerity; against migrants who make new claims and challenge accustomed ways; against a globalized market that depresses wages and benefits.

In the United States, they lean Republican because they fear the Democrats want to take from them and redistribute to Americans who are newer, poorer, and in their view less deserving—to “spread the wealth around,” in candidate Barack Obama’s words to “Joe the Plumber” back in 2008.

Yet they have come to fear more and more strongly that their party does not have their best interests at heart.


<snipp snippy>

Quote:
Politics was becoming more central to Americans’ identities in the 21st century than it ever was in the 20th.

Would you be upset if your child married a supporter of a different party from your own? In 1960, only 5 percent of Americans said yes. In 2010, a third of Democrats and half of Republicans did.

Political identity has become so central because it has come to overlap with so many other aspects of identity: race, religion, lifestyle.

In 1960, I wouldn’t have learned much about your politics if you told me that you hunted. Today, that hobby strongly suggests Republican loyalty. Unmarried? In 1960, that indicated little. Today, it predicts that you’re a Democrat, especially if you’re also a woman.


<more snippity snippity>

Quote:
The Great Recession ended in the summer of 2009. Since then, the U.S. economy has been growing, but most incomes have not grown comparably. In 2014, real median household income remained almost $4,000 below the pre-recession level, and well below the level in 1999.

The country has recovered from the worst economic disaster since the Great Depression. Most of its people have not.

Many Republicans haven’t shared in the recovery and continued upward flight of their more affluent fellow partisans.

It was these pessimistic Republicans who powered the Tea Party movement of 2009 and 2010. They were not, as a rule, libertarians looking for an ultraminimal government. The closest study we have of the beliefs of Tea Party supporters, led by Theda Skocpol, a Harvard political scientist, found that “Tea Partiers judge entitlement programs not in terms of abstract free-market orthodoxy, but according to the perceived deservingness of recipients.

The distinction between ‘workers’ and ‘people who don’t work’ is fundamental to Tea Party ideology.”


<interesting stuff ahead>

Quote:
Yet even as the Republican Main Street protested Obamacare, it rejected the hardening ideological orthodoxy of Republican donors and elected officials. A substantial minority of Republicans—almost 30 percent—said they would welcome “heavy” taxes on the wealthy, according to Gallup. Within the party that made Paul Ryan’s entitlement-slashing budget plan a centerpiece of policy, only 21 percent favored cuts in Medicare and only 17 percent wanted to see spending on Social Security reduced, according to Pew. Less than a third of ordinary Republicans supported a pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants (again according to Pew); a majority, by contrast, favored stepped-up deportation.

As a class, big Republican donors could not see any of this, or would not. So neither did the politicians who depend upon them. Against all evidence, both groups interpreted the Tea Party as a mass movement in favor of the agenda of the Wall Street Journal editorial page.

One of the more dangerous pleasures of great wealth is that you never have to hear anyone tell you that you are completely wrong.



<huge snip - David's written a long article - go in and read it>

Quote:
The puzzle for the monied leaders of the Republican Party is: What now? And what next after that? None of the options facing the GOP elite is entirely congenial. But there appear to be four paths the elite could follow, for this campaign season and beyond. They lead the party in very different directions.

Option 1: Double Down

The premise of the past few thousand words is that the Republican donor elite failed to impose its preferred candidate on an unwilling base in 2015 for big and important reasons. But maybe that premise is wrong. Maybe Jeb Bush has just been a bad candidate with a radioactive last name. Maybe the same message and platform would have worked fine if espoused by a fresher and livelier candidate. Such is the theory of Marco Rubio’s campaign. Or—even if the donor message and platform have troubles—maybe $100 million in negative ads can scorch any potential alternative, enabling the donor-backed candidate to win by default.

And if not Rubio, maybe the core donor message could still work if joined to a true outsider candidacy: Ben Carson’s, for example. Carson is often regarded as a protest candidate, but as The Weekly Standard’s Fred Barnes enthused back in January 2015: “One thing not in doubt is Carson’s conservatism. He’s the real deal, an economic, social, and foreign policy conservative.” Carson may say wacky things, but he does not say heterodox things.

Yet even if the Republican donor elite can keep control of the party while doubling down, it’s doubtful that the tactic can ultimately win presidential elections. The “change nothing but immigration” advice was a self-flattering fantasy from the start. Immigration is not the main reason Republican presidential candidates lose so badly among Latino and Asian American voters, and never was: Latino voters are more likely to list education and health care as issues that are extremely important to them. A majority of Asian Americans are non-Christian and susceptible to exclusion by sectarian religious themes.


Quote:
So …

Option 2: Tactical Concession

Perhaps some concession to the disgruntled base is needed. That’s the theory of the Cruz campaign and—after a course correction—also of the Christie campaign. Instead of 2013’s “Conservatism Classic Plus Immigration Liberalization,” Cruz and Christie are urging “Conservatism Classic Plus Immigration Enforcement.” True, Cruz’s carefully selected words on immigration leave open the possibility of guest-worker programs or other pro-employer reforms after a burst of border enforcement. But Cruz and Christie have seen the reaction to Donald Trump’s message, and appear to appreciate the need to at least seem to do something to redress the grievances of the Republican base.

Much of the donor elite could likely be convinced that while Jeb Bush’s idea of immigration reform would be good to have, it isn’t a must-have. Just as the party elite reached a pact on abortion with social conservatives in the 1980s, it could concede the immigration issue to its Main Street base in the 2010s.


Yet a narrow focus on immigration populism alone seems insufficient to raise Republican hopes. Trump shrewdly joins his immigration populism to trade populism. On the Democratic side, Bernie Sanders’s opposition to open borders is logically connected to his hopes for a Democratic Socialist future: His admired Denmark upholds high labor standards along with some of the world’s toughest immigration rules. Severed from a larger agenda, however—as Mitt Romney tried to sever the issue in 2012—immigration populism looks at best like pandering, and at worst like identity politics for white voters. In a society that is and always has been multiethnic and polyglot, any national party must compete more broadly than that.


Quote:
Which brings us to …

Option 3: True Reform

Admittedly, this may be the most uncongenial thought of them all, but party elites could try to open more ideological space for the economic interests of the middle class.

Make peace with universal health-insurance coverage: Mend Obamacare rather than end it.

Cut taxes less at the top, and use the money to deliver more benefits to working families in the middle.

Devise immigration policy to support wages, not undercut them.

Worry more about regulations that artificially transfer wealth upward, and less about regulations that constrain financial speculation.

Take seriously issues such as the length of commutes, nursing-home costs, and the anticompetitive practices that inflate college tuition.

Remember that Republican voters care more about aligning government with their values of work and family than they care about cutting the size of government as an end in itself.

Recognize that the gimmick of mobilizing the base with culture-war outrages stopped working at least a decade ago.

Such a party would cut health-care costs by squeezing providers, not young beneficiaries. It would boost productivity by investing in hard infrastructure—bridges, airports, water-treatment plants. It would restore Dwight Eisenhower to the Republican pantheon alongside Ronald Reagan and emphasize the center in center-right.

To imagine the change is to see how convulsive it would be—and how unlikely.

True, center-right conservative parties backed by broad multiethnic coalitions of the middle class have gained and exercised power in other English-speaking countries, even as Republicans lost the presidency in 2008 and 2012.

But the most-influential voices in American conservatism reject the experience of their foreign counterparts as weak, unprincipled, and unnecessary.

In parliamentary democracy, winning or losing is starkly binary: A party either is in power or is the opposition.

In the American system, that binary is much blurrier. Republicans can, of course, exert some control over government as long as they hold any one of the House, Senate, or presidency.


Quote:
Which brings us finally to …

Option 4: Change the Rules of the Game

“The filibuster used to be bad. Now it’s good.” So Fred Thompson, the late actor and former Republican senator, jokingly told an audience on a National Review cruise shortly after Barack Obama won the presidency for the first time.

How partisans feel about process issues is notoriously related to what process would benefit them at any given moment. Liberals loved the interventionist Supreme Court in the 1960s and ’70s, hated it in the 1990s and 2000s—and may rotate their opinion again if a President Hillary Clinton can tilt a majority of the Supreme Court their way. It’s an old story that may find a new twist if and when Republicans acknowledge that the presidency may be attainable only after they make policy changes that are unacceptable to the party elite.

There are metrics, after all, by which the post-2009 GOP appears to be a supremely successful political party. Recently, Rory Cooper, of the communications firm Purple Strategies, tallied a net gain to the Republicans of 69 seats in the House of Representatives, 13 seats in the Senate, 900-plus seats in state legislatures, and 12 governorships since Obama took office. With that kind of grip on state government, in particular, Republicans are well positioned to write election and voting rules that sustain their hold on the national legislature. The president may be able to grant formerly illegal immigrants the right to work, but he cannot grant them the right to vote. In this light, instead of revising Republican policies to stop future Barack Obamas and Hillary Clintons, maybe it’s necessary to revise only the party rules to stop future Donald Trumps from confronting party elites with their own unpopularity.



Quote:
What happens to an elite whose followers withdraw their assent?

Does it self-examine? Or does it take refuge in denial? Does it change? Or does it try to prevent change? Does it challenge itself to build a new political majority? Or does it seize the opportunities the American political system offers to compact and purposeful minorities? When its old answers fail, will it think anew? Or will it simply repeat louder the dogmas that enthralled supporters in the past? Americans love the crush of competition, the hard-fought struggle, the long-slogging race. But much more than the pundit’s “Who will win?,” it is these deeper questions from the election of 2016 that will shape the future of American politics.


Barbara and Murray raised an interesting man.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 03:39 pm
@ehBeth,
(just in case anyone thinks I'm a shill for David Frum, I'll say I think he's about 100% wrong on the Syrian refugee question http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/a-princess-diana-moment-david-frum-on-refugees-and-response/ )
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2016 08:33 am
@ehBeth,
Not that my opinion matter regarding republicans, but I am in favor of option 3, might even change my political affiliation.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Feb, 2016 06:39 am
Not sure if anyone here has been following the Adelson takeover of the Las Vegas Review Journal (which has just endorsed Rubio) but it is a story worth attending to. By far the best coverage/commentary has been from Jay Rosen at his Pressthink blog http://pressthink.org/
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Feb, 2016 06:53 am
@revelette2,
Which explains Revel's affinity for Hillary Clinton pretty succinctly.
____________________________________________

That was a very interesting piece by Frum. The GOP is headless these days. No sensible, decent person who just believes in the basic tenets of Republicanism without all the flashy racism and sexism and denying fellow human beings basic rights is anywhere on the horizon.

The figureheads of the party seem like a schizophrenic riot of mean and stupid.

0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Feb, 2016 06:58 am
Of the situation with migrants/refugees/pick your appositive, Frum said, "In fact, even to think rationally about this problem is considered a hateful thing."

I like him more and more.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Feb, 2016 07:25 am
From Frum's electrifying (the fact he had the nerve to state a relatively common, but grossly unpopular) statement:

A phobia is an irrational fear. What is not irrational is to look at the data on what has happened with migrants to Europe from the Middle East and North Africa in the past 10 years. I just did a big article about this for The Atlantic called “The Case for Closing Europe’s Harbours.” It is a fact that the migrants to Europe from these countries have claimed more in welfare costs than they pay in taxes, and do so for many, many years and often multiple generations. It’s a fact that they’re associated with dramatic increases in criminal behaviour. These aren’t allegations; these aren’t slurs. These are documented numbers.

Now, a lot of these numbers are hard to get ahold of, because European governments, knowing how bad the facts are, often don’t keep proper records. In fact, there’s kind of a minor scandal in how little study there is, but to the extent there’s study, we can note this migration is not working.
__________________________________________

The link: http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/a-princess-diana-moment-david-frum-on-refugees-and-response/
0 Replies
 
 

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