49
   

Who do you think will be the next president of the United States?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 02:44 pm
@tsarstepan,
Really. Even as the CIC, I'm not sure of any air force pilot who would follow his order to drop an atomic bomb.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 02:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I'm not sure of any air force pilot who would follow his order to drop an atomic bomb.


So turn the atom bomb over to a CIA pilot.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 02:57 pm
@BillRM,
What makes you think a CIA pilot will?
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 03:18 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Over decades CIA agents had a history of following orders and not international laws so I see no reason why that bomb would not be drop.

But once more why use a nuke when a air/fuel bomb would do the job?
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 04:19 pm
@tsarstepan,
tsarstepan wrote:
...swears he'll use nuclear weapons whenever he has the chance...

Boy, I sure didn't see that in the news. I heard something about no option being ruled out when he was asked a question, but not that he swears he'll use them whenever he has a chance. Could you please post a link to that?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 04:28 pm
@BillRM,
Dropping an atomic bomb is quite different than conventional bombs. Even the smaller ones dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were believed by many to be inhumane and unnecessary. The US has had nukes ever since then, but never used them again even though we used carpet bombing in Korea and Vietnam. Even the effects of Agent Orange was believed by many to be too cruel and unnecessary.
Maybe, people like you are okay with it, but many believe as I do that they are a crime against humanity.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/11/us/u-s-chemical-weapons/
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 04:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Let see the thousand fire bombers raids on Tokyo killed hundreds of thousands far more then the two nukes did.

Somehow being slowly cook to death by miles wide fire storms that suck the very air out of air raid shelter seem worst to me then nukes.

There is no nice way to die in war and I am fairly sure that those people who was force to choose between jumping out of the twin towers or burning to death did not think that ISIS was not being cruel for that matter.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 04:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/tokyo.htm


The Allies had first encountered the phenomenon of the firestorm when the British bombed the German city of Hamburg in August of 1943. The night raid ignited numerous fires that soon united into one uncontrollable mass of flame, so hot it generated its own self-sustaining, gale-force winds and literally sucked the oxygen out of the air, suffocating its victims. Lemay hoped to use this force to level the cities of Japan. Tokyo would be the first test.

A successful incendiary raid required ideal weather that included dry air and significant wind. Weather reports predicted these conditions over Tokyo on the night of March 9-10, 1945. A force of 334 B-29s was unleashed - each plane stripped of ammunition for its machine guns to allow it to carry more fire-bombs. The lead attackers arrived over the city just after dark and were followed by a procession of death that lasted until dawn. The fires started by the initial raiders could be seen from 150 miles away. The results were devastating: almost 17 square miles of the city were reduced to ashes. Estimates of the number killed range between 80,000 and 200,000, a higher death toll than that produced by the dropping of the Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima or Nagasaki six months later.

"They set to work at once sowing the sky with fire."

Robert Guillain was a French reporter assigned to Japan in 1938. He stayed on after war broke in Europe and was trapped in the country after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor. He returned to France in 1946 and published a book recounting his experiences. He was in Tokyo on the night of March 9, 1945 when the wet winter weather made a surprise change to mild temperatures and gusty winds. We join his story as the sound of air-raid sirens pierce the night and the first B-29s make their appearance:

"They set to work at once sowing the sky with fire. Bursts of light flashed everywhere in the darkness like Christmas trees lifting their decorations of flame high into the night, then fell back to earth in whistling bouquets of jagged flame. Barely a quarter of an hour after the raid started, the fire, whipped by the wind, began to scythe its way through the density of that wooden city.

ADVERTISMENT
This time again, luck - or rather, the American command's methodical planning - spared my district from direct attack. A huge borealis grew over the quarters closer to the center, which had obviously been reached by the gradual, raid-by-raid unrolling of the carpet-bombing. The bright light dispelled the night and B-29s were visible here and there in the sky. For the first time, they flew low or middling high in staggered levels. Their long, glinting wings, sharp as blades, could be seen through the oblique columns of smoke rising from the city, suddenly reflecting the fire from the furnace below, black silhouettes gliding through the fiery sky to reappear farther on, shining golden against the dark roof of heaven or glittering blue, like meteors, in the searchlight beams spraying the vault from horizon to horizon. There was no question in such a raid of huddling blindly underground; you could be roasted alive before you knew what was happening. All the Japanese in the gardens near mine were out of doors or peering up out of their holes, uttering cries of admiration - this was typically Japanese - at this grandiose, almost theatrical spectacle.

The bombs were falling farther off now, beyond the hill that closed my horizon. But the wind, still violent, began to sweep up the burning debris beaten down from the inflamed sky. The air was filled with live sparks, then with burning bits of wood and paper until soon it was raining fire. One had to race constantly from terrace to garden and around the house to watch for fires and douse firebrands. Far-off torch clusters exploded and fell back in wavy lines on the city. Sometimes, probably when inflammable liquids were set alight, the bomb blasts looked like flaming hair. Here and there, the red puffs of antiaircraft bursts sent dotted red lines across the sky, but the defenses were ineffectual and the big B-29s, flying in loose formation, seemed to work unhampered. At intervals the sky would empty; the planes disappeared. But fresh waves, announced in advance by the hoarse but still confident radio voice, soon came to occupy the night and the frightful Pentecost resumed. Flames rose nearby - it was difficult to tell how near - toward the hill where my district ended. I could see them twisting in the wind across roofs silhouetted in black; dark debris whirled in the storm above me."

"Hell could be no hotter."

The bombers' primary target was the neighboring industrial district of the city that housed factories, docks and the homes of the workers who supplied the manpower for Japan's war industry. The district hugged Tokyo Bay and was densely-packed with wooden homes lining winding streets that followed random paths - all the ingredients necessary for creating a perfect fire storm.

"Around midnight, the first Superfortresses dropped hundreds of clusters of the incendiary cylinders the people called "Molotov flower baskets," marking out the target zone with four or five big fires. The planes that followed, flying lower, circled and crisscrossed the area, leaving great rings of fire behind them. Soon other waves came in to drop their incendiaries inside the "marker" circles. Hell could be no hotter.


B-29s drop their incendiaries
on a Japanese city.The inhabitants stayed heroically put as the bombs dropped, faithfully obeying the order that each family defend its own home. But how could they fight the fires with that wind blowing and when a single house might be hit by ten or even more of the bombs, each weighing up to 6.6 pounds, that were raining down by the thousands? As they fell, cylinders scattered a kind of flaming dew that skittered along the roofs, setting fire to everything it splashed and spreading a wash of dancing flames everywhere - the first version of napalm, of dismal fame. The meager defenses of those thousands of amateur firemen - feeble jets of hand-pumped water, wet mats and sand to be thrown on the bombs when one could get close enough to their terrible heat were completely inadequate. Roofs collapsed under the bombs' impact and within minutes the frail houses of wood and paper were aflame, lighted from the inside like paper lanterns. The hurricane-force wind puffed up great clots of flame and sent burning planks planing through the air to fell people and set fire to what they touched. Flames from a distant cluster of houses would suddenly spring up close at hand, traveling at the speed of a forest fire. Then screaming families abandoned their homes; sometimes the women had already left, carrying their babies and dragging crates or mattresses. Too late: the circle of fire had closed off their street. Sooner or later, everyone was surrounded by fire.

The police were there and so were detachments of helpless firemen who for a while tried to control the fleeing crowds, channeling them toward blackened holes where earlier fires had sometimes carved a passage. In the rare places where the fire hoses worked - water was short and the pressure was low in most of the mains - firemen drenched the racing crowds so that they could get through the barriers of flame. Elsewhere, people soaked themselves in the water barrels that stood in front of each house before setting off again. A litter of obstacles blocked their way; telegraph poles and the overhead trolley wires that formed a dense net around Tokyo fell in tangles across streets. In the dense smoke, where the wind was so hot it seared the lungs, people struggled, then burst into flames where they stood. The fiery air was blown down toward the ground and it was often the refugees' feet that began burning first: the men's puttees and the women's trousers caught fire and ignited the rest of their clothing.

Proper air-raid clothing as recommended by the government to the civilian population consisted of a heavily padded hood over the head and shoulders that was supposed chiefly to protect people's ears from bomb blasts-explosives, that is. But for months, Tokyo had mostly been fire-bombed. The hoods flamed under the rain of sparks; people who did not burn from the feet up burned from the head down. Mothers who carried their babies strapped to their backs, Japanese style, would discover too late that the padding that enveloped the infant had caught fire. Refugees clutching their packages crowded into the rare clear spaces - crossroads, gardens and parks - but the bundles caught fire even faster than clothing and the throng flamed from the inside.

Hundreds of people gave up trying to escape and, with or without their precious bundles, crawled into the holes that served as shelters; their charred bodies were found after the raid. Whole families perished in holes they had dug under their wooden houses because shelter space was scarce in those overpopulated hives of the poor; the house would collapse and burn on top of them, braising them in their holes.


Tokyo after the raid The fire front advanced so rapidly that police often did not have time to evacuate threatened blocks even if a way out were open. And the wind, carrying debris from far away, planted new sprouts of fire in unexpected places. Firemen from the other half of the city tried to move into the inferno or to contain it within its own periphery, but they could not approach it except by going around it into the wind, where their efforts were useless or where everything had already been incinerated. The same thing happened that had terrorized the city during the great fire of 1923: ...under the wind and the gigantic breath of the fire, immense, incandescent vortices rose in a number of places, swirling, flattening sucking whole blocks of houses into their maelstrom of fire.

Wherever there was a canal, people hurled themselves into the water; in shallow places, people waited, half sunk in noxious muck, mouths just above the surface of the water. Hundreds of them were later found dead; not drowned, but asphyxiated by the burning air and smoke. In other places, the water got so hot that the luckless bathers were simply boiled alive. Some of the canals ran directly into the Sumida; when the tide rose, people huddled in them drowned. In Asakusa and Honjo, people crowded onto the bridges, but the spans were made of steel that gradually heated; human clusters clinging to the white-hot railings finally let go, fell into the water and were carried off on the current. Thousands jammed the parks and gardens that lined both banks of the Sumida. As panic brought ever fresh waves of people pressing into the narrow strips of land, those in front were pushed irresistibly toward the river; whole walls of screaming humanity toppled over and disappeared in the deep water. Thousands of drowned bodies were later recovered from the Sumida estuary.

Sirens sounded the all-clear around 5 A.M. - those still working in the half of the city that had not been attacked; the other half burned for twelve hours more. I talked to someone who had inspected the scene an March 11. What was most awful, my witness told me, was having to get off his bicycle every couple of feet to pass over the countless bodies strewn through the streets. There was still a light wind blowing and some of the bodies, reduced to ashes, were simply scattering like sand. In many sectors, passage was blocked by whole incinerated crowds."

References:
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 07:08 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Really. Even as the CIC, I'm not sure of any air force pilot who would follow his order to drop an atomic bomb.

Use of nuclear weapons requires an order from BOTH the President and the Secretary of Defense.

The US Air Force will execute any valid order to use nuclear weapons.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 07:09 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Over decades CIA agents had a history of following orders and not international laws so I see no reason why that bomb would not be drop.

How do they not follow international law?

Is use of nuclear weapons supposed to be a violation of international law?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 07:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Even the smaller ones dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were believed by many to be inhumane and unnecessary.

Weird people believe all sorts of goofy things. But Japan was refusing to surrender, and we had no idea what it was going to take to make them surrender.


cicerone imposter wrote:
Even the effects of Agent Orange was believed by many to be too cruel and unnecessary.

A defoliant? How horrible of us.


cicerone imposter wrote:
Maybe, people like you are okay with it, but many believe as I do that they are a crime against humanity.

A crime against humanity involves the deliberate massacre of a large number of civilians (the 9/11 attacks for instance).

If the use of nuclear weapons does not involve intentionally targeting civilians, there is no crime against humanity.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 07:17 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Is use of nuclear weapons supposed to be a violation of international law?


Not that I know of off hands however it I remember correctly weapons of mass destruction aimed mainly at civilians such as gas had resulted in people being tried for war crimes in the last decade or so.

But as I keep saying over and over given the abilities of non-nukes to wiped out square miles why oh why used nukes.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 10:54 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Not that I know of off hands however it I remember correctly weapons of mass destruction aimed mainly at civilians such as gas had resulted in people being tried for war crimes in the last decade or so.

Intentionally firing on civilians with any sort of weapon is likely to result in war crimes prosecution.


BillRM wrote:
But as I keep saying over and over given the abilities of non-nukes to wiped out square miles why oh why used nukes.

Depends on what you need to achieve. Nukes offer a much greater destructive potential.

It would indeed be a waste to expend nukes on something that could be eliminated conventionally. But if you want to flatten the entire industrial sector of a major nation in the space of an hour, a barrage of half-megaton airbursts will do a pretty fine job.
RABEL222
 
  4  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 11:07 pm
@Blickers,
I dont think my voting style is going against the grain. I worked as a electrician steelworker for 42 years from 1956 till I retired and not one republican presidential or congressional candidate ever tried to do anything for me but to try to destroy the only protection I had against big business which was the union I belonged to. They are still trying to destroy unions with varying degrees of success. Which is why I have never understood why an hourly working surf would ever vote republican.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  3  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2016 11:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The military does as ordered. Never believe anything else. Its why we try to keep the military out of politics, which they engage in too much already. I think any high officer who makes a political statement should be fired immediately.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2016 05:28 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
But if you want to flatten the entire industrial sector of a major nation in the space of an hour, a barrage of half-megaton airbursts will do a pretty fine job.


An what nation in the middle east had such a large industrial sector?
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2016 06:37 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
as I keep saying over and over given the abilities of non-nukes to wiped out square miles why oh why used nukes.


Why oh why do those who never wore the uniform wax the most sentimentally over use of the military?
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2016 06:39 am
@BillRM,
My wife with 30 years in the CIA thinks you do not have a clue.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2016 07:38 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Give the many failures of the CIA including for examples the many attempts to murder Castro in the 1960s the bay of pigs and on and on decades after decades your wife as an employee of that joke of an intelligence agency have no foundation to charge anyone with not having a clue.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2016 08:16 am
@bobsal u1553115,
You know I have been fighting myself not to write a damn ten thousands word paper on how useless the CIA had been since it assume the responsibilities from the OSS.

Love how Kennedy in dealing with the Cuban missile crisis was not aware that the local Russian military commander have tactic nukes under his command and control.

That is as near as the CIA ever got us into a nuclear war that is at least known to the public.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/17/2024 at 05:23:55