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McCain condemns ad, Kerry's commander backs off

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 10:00 am
Anyone who looks back a couple of months can find several of my posts saying Kerry served and received an honorable discharge. That's all we need to know. I deplored Kerry and everybody else who openly protested the Vietnam war because I think it prolonged hostilities and cost American lives. But I respected the right to do that and did not think it disqualified Kerry's military service. That he lied about that medal throwing incident was the first inkling there was more here than met the eye, but that alone wasn't enough to make a big deal out of it.

Now Kerry himself has chosen to write his resume as follows:

1. I was born
2. I am a war hero with two medals and
three purple hearts.
3. I am running for president.

Because he has made his service in Vietnam virtually his sole qualification to be president, he himself has made it an issue. And it is fair game for scrutiny and criticism especially when so many 'facts' are not adding up and it it seems probably that he has flat out lied about a lot of them.

BBB's question, even though teasing, is actually a good one. Yes, if I was running for president I would expect to put my family tax returns up for close scrutiny as all candidates (except Kerry) have done. If I had military service, I would expect to put all the record out there also for scrutiny as all presidential candidates (except Kerry) have done. The president of the United States pretty much forfeits any right to privacy in any matter that speaks to his/her qualifications and/or that have potential for conflict of interest.

When Kerry is on record via speech or his books or any other source of giving a version of the facts that are disputed by others who were there, we do need to look at that. If it turns out to be nothing, then fine. Kerry made a big deal that these guys he served with were war criminals committing atrocities. If he in fact doesn't know that, he is capable of smearing anybody for his own purposes. We need to know that. If he didn't do it, then that is good too.

Kerry testified before Congress that he was ordered into Cambodia illegally. His superiors say he was never there. If he lied about it, that is something the American people should have available to consider when they make a choice for their president. If they don't care, then they don't care.

Even if he manipulated the record or magnified the details re his service, these are things that speak to his character and are relative to his qualifications to be Commander in Chief. I personally think the country should demand a measure of honor and integrity in the man/woman they choose to lead the country.

What makes all this relevant is that Kerry himself made it relevant.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 10:30 am
Foxfyre
Foxfyre wrote: "personally think the country should demand a measure of honor and integrity in the man/woman they choose to lead the country."

That standard would disqualify George W. Bush.

BBB
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 11:21 am
If foxfire applied that standard herself she would become a Democrat.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 11:27 am
Well it certainly doesn't to me. I don't see George Bush holding himself up as a war hero or claiming that his military service gives him any special qualifications to be president. Except for the obvious misspeaks that all but the blindly partisan recognize as misspeaks, I have not detected a single lie in anything that George Bush has said. Has some things he has said turned out to be wrong? Yes. But he, supported by others, believed them at the time so these are not lies.

Excluding campaign ad rhetoric that would damn both candidates, intentionally stating something you know is a mistruth is a lie and it is inexcusable when it is intended to exalt yourself or smear somebody else. George Bush has not done that. John Kerry, I believe, has.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 12:46 pm
"But he, supported by someone else, believed them himself and so these are not lies?" HAHAHA There is no place for the buck to stop in the Bush Camp. They can blame any convenient lies on some convenient scapegoat. How very clever... and they had their fingers crossed behind their backs too.

Let's start talking about issues.

Here is a reasonable way to begin to really protect the United States from terror.
Quote:

Today, we face three great challenges above all others - First, to win the global war against terror; Second, to stop the spread of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons; Third, to promote democracy, freedom, and opportunity around the world, starting by winning the peace in Iraq. To meet these challenges, John Kerry's national security policy will be guided by four imperatives:

Launch And Lead A New Era Of Alliances
The threat of terrorism demands alliances on a global scale - to utilize every available resource to get the terrorists before they can strike at us. As president, John Kerry will lead a coalition of the able - because no force on earth is more able than the United States and its allies.

Modernize The World's Most Powerful Military To Meet New Threats
John Kerry and John Edwards have a plan to transform the world's most powerful military to better address the modern threats of terrorism and proliferation, while ensuring that we have enough properly trained and equipped troops to meet our enduring strategic and regional missions.

Deploy All That Is In America's Arsenal
The war on terror cannot be won by military might alone. As president, John Kerry will deploy all the forces in America's arsenal - our diplomacy, our intelligence system, our economic power, and the appeal of our values and ideas - to make America more secure and prevent a new generation of terrorists from emerging.

Free America From Its Dangerous Dependence On Mideast Oil
To secure our full independence and freedom, we must free America from its dangerous dependence on Mideast oil. By tapping American ingenuity, we can achieve that goal while growing our economy and protecting our environment.
0 Replies
 
Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 01:52 pm
squinney wrote:
I find it amazing that despite all of the evidence that contradicts what the Swift Boat Vets are saying


LOL, what evidence?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 02:14 pm
I think what squinney's talkin' about there, Karzak, is the overwhelming weight of the anecdotes of a dozen or so emotionally involved, primarilly at-the-time-lower-enlisted-ranks-caught-up-in-all-of-it-when-it-was-happenin' sorts who served with Kerry a few weeks each as opposed to reams of official documents, newsprint, Congressional Record, sworn testimony, affidavits, hours of network film clips and video tape, and the anecdotes of all but one of Kerry's fellow boat commanders and of every single one of his superiors up the chain of command, whether or not numbered among the 250+ Swiftboat Veterans who have publically come forward to challenge The Kerry Version. I mean, how seriously can you take any of that stuff, when you've got 9 or 10 just-plain-folks who happen to be vets and claim The Kerry Version is gospel? Honestly, next you'd have us believe Max Cleland blew himself up.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 02:17 pm
Sarcasm: Intellect on the offensive.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 02:29 pm
timberlandko wrote:
the overwhelming weight of the anecdotes of a dozen or so emotionally involved, primarilly at-the-time-lower-enlisted-ranks-caught-up-in-all-of-it-when-it-was-happenin' sorts who served with Kerry


aka witnesses
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 02:41 pm
There are witnesses, ehBeth, and there are witnesses qualified to assess, evaluate, and comment upon that which they have witnessed. There's no dispute that Kerry's shipmates were Kerry's shipmates at whichever and for whatever time, or that they were "There"; what is at dispute, in more ways than one, is just "Where" that "There" was.

Here's a new bit from another qualified witness, not only a shipmate, and of by-comparison-with-the-others long-time shipmate, but also a direct superior of Kerry's:

Quote:
Kerry's qualifications for the presidency

By James F. Kelly Jr.
August 12, 2004

I've been receiving a lot of queries lately about things that did or did not happen during the time John Kerry and I served together in the Navy. I've also received large quantities of reading material, mostly e-mail and mostly unpersuasive, from people attempting to trash, for political purposes, his relatively brief combat service in Swift Boats. I have also declined offers to join groups attempting to discredit him on the basis of his naval service.

Kerry and I served together on the Gridley in 1967 and 1968. The Gridley was a new guided missile frigate, later reclassified with the rest of the ships in her class as a guided missile cruiser. Ensign Kerry was first lieutenant, the division officer in charge of the deck force consisting of about 30 sailors. I was a commander serving as executive officer, or second in command.

The officers reporting directly to me were the department heads, mostly lieutenant commanders. Kerry reported to the weapons officer, one of the department heads, but had daily direct contact with me because of his responsibilities for deck seamanship, the ship's four boats and the external appearance of the ship and also because of his collateral duty as public affairs officer, a position I had previously filled in an aircraft carrier.

Kerry was a fine junior officer - intelligent, responsible and hardworking. Moreover, he possessed these qualities in degrees not common in inexperienced ensigns. His fitness reports (evaluations) that I drafted for the captain's signature reflected those qualities and more. He earned them.

We first received orders for Kerry to report while we were still deployed to the South China Sea and the Tonkin Gulf area. We had a rescue helicopter detachment on board, berthing was tight and we had no immediate need for another junior officer, so we decided that the best use of his services was to remain stateside filling required school quotas until we returned to Long Beach.

After a turnaround of less than eight months, the Gridley deployed again in February 1968 with Ensign Kerry on board. Much of that tour was, like the previous one, spent on search-and-rescue duty, providing support to the carrier and assistance to downed aviators and aircraft in distress.

We returned to Long Beach in June 1968, and Kerry left shortly after for Swift Boat training. He spent a little over four months on combat duty in the rivers of South Vietnam and was awarded the Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts. He left the Navy after his obligated service tour, joined the anti-war protest movement, entered politics and the rest, as they say, is history.

Kerry refers to his approximately one-year tour on the Gridley as tedious and monotonous. He has little to say about that one-third of his naval career because, he says, not much happened. You could have fooled me. I thought it was rather exciting. I have spoken with many of our former shipmates, and they seemed to feel that we were actually doing something important back then. I'm sure, however, that it seemed tame in retrospect compared to his four months on the rivers with the brown water Navy.

After much urging by former shipmates, I read Douglas Brinkley's account of Kerry's service in "Tour of Duty" (William Morrow: New York, 2004). In a chapter entitled "High Seas Adventures" (perhaps "adventures" is a bit strong, considering the boredom and monotony), Brinkley describes, in near heroic terms, Kerry's duties onboard the Gridley. I may have forgotten some of the awesome responsibilities that we heaped upon Ensign Kerry, but I'm sure that he handled those well, also. There's a good deal of hyperbole in that chapter, but then a little exaggeration is normal, I guess, when it comes to describing the past exploits of presidential candidates.

Be all that as it may, Kerry was a fine junior officer - one of the best I've served with. I can't comment on the four months or so on the rivers of Vietnam because I wasn't there. Others who weren't there shouldn't comment on them either. Nor will I second-guess his awards nor should anyone else unless they can prove for certain that the citations misstated the facts and that somebody lied. Thirty-five years later is no time to be questioning them. And besides, what does all of this have to do with his qualifications for president?

Kerry spent less than a year and a half on sea duty, much less than that in the combat zone. Most of the rest of his service obligation was spent in school. His service to his country is commendable, and his decorations attest to the quality of that service and to his bravery. To make this service the centerpiece of his presidential campaign 35 years later, however, is ludicrous.

Kerry's credentials to be commander in chief of the armed forces are flawed by his anti-war protest activities while his comrades were still fighting and dying. They are further soiled by his outrageous accusations of atrocities committed by his comrades in a war in which belligerents posed as civilians.

A three-year tour of service, even heroic service, does not qualify one to be president. Of far more relevance is his 19 years in the Senate, becoming its most liberal member and opposing most defense legislation. On this, his campaign is virtually silent and for very good reason: His record in public life has little to commend it to voters concerned about the defense of the United States against international terrorism.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelly, a Coronado resident, is a retired Navy captain, bank executive and a former Navy League national director and council president. He writes and speaks on defense issues and can be reached via e-mail at [email protected].
0 Replies
 
Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 02:42 pm
three kerry witnesses vs. hundreds of ones that say kerry isn't so truthful, I wonder where the weight rests on this one.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 03:45 pm
The Night Before Christmas (Cambodian Version)

Twas the night before Christmas and we were afloat
Somewhere in Cambodia in our little boat.
While the river was lightened by rockets red glare
No one but the President knew we were there.

The crew was all nestled deep down in their bunks,
While the Spook and I watched the sampans and junks.
Our mission was secret, so secret in fact,
No one else would remember it when we got back.

When out on the water there arose such a clatter
I leaped down from the bridge to see what was the matter.
The incoming friendly was starting to flash
And I knew that the ARVN's were having a bash.

The snap of friendly fire on the warm tropic air
Convinced me for sure no one knew we were there,
On a clandestine mission so secret it's true
That I'm still convinced only Tricky Dick knew.

While I huddled for safety in the tub on the bow,
I thought of a title, "Apocalypse Now."
To give to the films I was I making each day
To show all the voters when I made my big play.

As I sat there sweating in my lucky flight jacket,
Spook said, "Merry Christmas!" and tossed me a packet.
And what to my wondering eyes did appear,
But a new lucky cap, which I still have right here.

I keep it tucked here, in this leather brief case,
Just sharing with the press its secretive place
As I regale them again with my senate refrain,
That Christmas in Cambodia is seared into my brain.

Don't bother to quibble with history my friend,
By pointing out Johnson was President then.
Don't listen to Swiftees who try to explain,
For I tell you that night is seared into my brain.

Down Hibbard, down Lonsdale, and you too O'Neill,
So you don't remember? Well it's something I feel.
I don't need all you Swiftvets to support my campaign,
Cause Christmas in Cambodia is seared into my brain,

Into my brain, into my brain, into my brain...

Russ Vaughn
2d Bn, 327th Parachute Infantry Regiment
101st Airborne Division
Vietnam 65-66
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 05:33 pm
This thread has gotten increasingly boring. Apologies as the originator drops off.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 08:32 am
The following is one of Drudge's breaking stories today, and while Drudge is given to yellow journalism at times, he has been right on target with the Kerry war record fiasco so far.

What do you want to bet Kerry is now wishing with all his heart he had not made his military record the cornerstone of his campaign?

Quote:
Quote:
TOUR OF DUTY author and John Kerry historian Doug Brinkley is rushing a piece for the NEW YORKER: to set-the-record-straight on Kerry's Christmas in Cambodia tale, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

Kerry has turned to author Brinkley for a "modification" after it was exposed that Kerry was not in Cambodia during Christmas of 1968, as he once claimed from the Senate floor.

The Brinkley piece for the NEW YORKER will now say that Kerry was not in Cambodia during Christmas, but rather in January, publishing sources tell DRUDGE.

MORE

Since the early 1970s, Kerry has spoken and written of how he was illegally ordered to enter Cambodia. Kerry mentioned it in the floor of the Senate in 1986 when he charged that President Reagan's actions in Central America were leading the U.S. in another Vietnam. Here's what he said as excerpted from the new book, UNFIT FOR COMMAND:

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared--seared--in me."
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 10:16 am
Foxfyre
Foxfyre, so Kerry got the month wrong. He was 30 days off. It was January instead of December. Big deal? Let's be fair. Perhaps it was one of those honest mistakes you keep using as an excuse for George Bush's "misstatements."

BBB
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 10:22 am
Kerry thought Christmas was in January?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 10:28 am
Quote:
http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/KerryInCambodia.jpg

This photograph (courtesy AP) proves John Kerry did indeed travel on a riverine craft upriver and cross into Cambodia. Here we see Lt(jg) Kerry (USNR) and CPT Willard (USA) conducting a nighttime infiltration of the target zone in pursuit of the mission objective: find and terminate the infamous AWOL renegade, COL Kurtz (USA), who was guilty of committing horrible atrocities. No doubt these were the atrocities about which John Kerry so courageously testified later before the U.S. Senate Investigation Committee. Apparently some details have been confused, for example, Kerry did not travel into Cambodia on this mission in his own Swift boat, but rather a PBR--which for this mission was callsign "Streetgang."
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 10:29 am
So, was Kerry in Cambodia when the President of the United States was telling people troops were not there, or not?

That's the only thing I see as potentially significant.

I say "potentially", but all of this stuff is so stupid and silly. Does it mean nothing to you guys that McCain has condemned it? That the White House even has said they had nothing to do with it?

I guess I'm glad that this is what all the chatter is about these days, that this is the best they can come up with. January vs. December. -sigh-

Looking forward to Doug Brinkley's article. Love Drudge's non-partisan language. Rolling Eyes (And as for "right on target", remember the little oopsie about the Globe journalist working on Kerry's campaign?)
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 10:30 am
The Kerry War Record "fiasco" is only that in the trembling hearts and minds of the Republicans. Why doesn't that party start showing positive ads for what Bush has done. Oh. That's right... nothing to report there.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 10:39 am
How about standing on an aircraft carrier in a flight suit?
0 Replies
 
 

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