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McCain condemns ad, Kerry's commander backs off

 
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 10:17 am
Thanks!
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Who
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 10:29 am
Let's just think logically right now --- why would Kerry --- a presidential nominee put ANYTHING into his campaign that has the potential to seriously backfire? He wouldn't. He wouldn't have used his "hero" status unless there was truth behind it -- cause as a man with much more intelligence then the ape of a president we have now ---- he would now that it would only seriously affect his campaign if any truth could be put to the Swift Boat Memebers.

PS -- I'm still confused -- why didn't the Swift Boat Veterans do anything about Kerry's "lie" 35 years ago? Gosh -- I smell fish - do you?

The Swift Boat Memebers make this big deal that they have something like 260 members and they all are anit-Kerry -- but even they say that only 60 served under Kerry -- which I think even that is an enlarged number.

I don't really know if I think Kerry is THE BEST to run our nation -- there may be someone else out there that we haven't even seen yet -- but I do know that I like my president to have good speaking skills cause he represents us -- I don't like be represented as a backwater red neck.
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 11:00 am
The point , is that Mr Kerry is perceived as the best alternative to an incumbent not as the best choice to become the president. And this puts Mr. Kerry at a disadvantage. As one of the cleverest polticians said:
Bill Clinton implied two weeks ago that Mr. Kerry was acting sluggish. "Whenever they hit me, I hit 'em back," he told Jon Stewart. "And whenever they came up with a charge I didn't believe was true, I answered back."
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 07:48 am
Actually, in a certain sense, Kerry is the aggressor in this situation, because he is going right for a core constituency the Republicans have-white veterans. White males are the only majority Republicans have, and if Kerry is going to go in and take the most military minded of these, as he is making clear he intends to do, it is a blow both to the self-image and public image of the Republicans.

Republicans like to revel in their tough guy image. Democrats put forth a "we care about you" image. If Kerry, by his personal history, shows himself to be more of a tough guy than Bush, what the hell do the Republicans have left? Rush Limbaugh, the Hillbilly Heroin king?

That's why the Republicans are fighting back so viciously with these Swift Boat vets and their claims. The Republicans have to take down Kerry's military record-it really is a threat to their whole public image.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 10:30 am
Well said, keltic.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 10:35 am
Keltic
I agree with Sozobe that it was well said, Keltic, except for "Rush Limbaugh, the Hillbilly Heroin king?" As much as I dislike Limbaugh, I don't think he's ever been accused of using heroin. That statement detracts from your wisdom expressed in your post.

BBB
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 12:04 pm
Re: Keltic
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
I agree with Sozobe that it was well said, Keltic, except for "Rush Limbaugh, the Hillbilly Heroin king?" As much as I dislike Limbaugh, I don't think he's ever been accused of using heroin. That statement detracts from your wisdom expressed in your post.


Oxycontin, the prescription drug Limbaugh is accused of abusing (along with the charges associated with his acquiring it) is nicknamed "Hillbilly Heroin".
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 12:07 pm
Thanks for the word PDiddie.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 12:32 pm
Bush Denounces Ads by Outside Groups
Bush's non-response response; he still won't critisize the Swiftboaters smear ads against Kerry. ---BBB

Bush Denounces Ads by Outside Groups
Aug 23, 1:57 PM (ET)
By PETE YOST

CRAWFORD, Texas (AP) - President Bush denounced TV ads by outside groups attacking both John Kerry and himself on Monday and called for a halt to all such political efforts. "I think they're bad for the system," he said.

The president made his comments as the Kerry campaign fought back against charges made by an outside group that the Democratic senator had lied about wartime events in Vietnam for which he received five medals.

In a conference call with reporters arranged by aides to the Democratic presidential candidate, Navy swift boat officers Rich McCann, Jim Russell and Rich Baker said Kerry acted honorably and bravely and was well qualified to be the nation's commander in chief.

"He was the most aggressive officer in charge of swift boats," Baker said.

Additionally, crewmate Del Sandusky said at a news conference in Harrisburg, Pa., that he personally witnessed the battle action for which Kerry received Silver and Bronze stars and two of his three Purple Hearts.

"He deserved every one of his medals," Sandusky, a retired computer repairman who drove Kerry's boat for nearly three months.

The attack on Kerry's war record has dominated the presidential campaign in the days since Swift Boat Veterans For Truth began airing its commercial in three states.

With polls suggesting Kerry's standing was beginning to slip - at least among veterans - the Democrat last week called on Bush to call for the ads to be pulled from the air. He also accused Bush of allowing front groups to "do his dirty work."

Bush's campaign heatedly denied any connection with the anti-Kerry group, and called on the Democratic challenger to join the president in a call for all outside groups to pull their ads.

Bush has himself been subjected to a multimillion-dollar barrage of attack ads aired by groups seeking to help Kerry win the White House.

Underscoring the impact of the anti-Kerry ad, the Democratic National Committee began airing a commercial last week that offered a testimonial to Kerry's fitness for national command.

And in a shift in strategy, Kerry's campaign has responded with two commercials, despite plans to preserve its campaign funds for the general election campaign.

Kerry running mate John Edwards said Sunday that Bush needed to tell the veterans group to pull its anti-Kerry ads. Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona has said the tactics are the same kind used on him and asked the president to denounce them.

The White House says it denounces all attack ads against both candidates by outside groups, while refusing to get specific about condemning the veterans group's advertising.

"The president ... and (political adviser) Karl Rove have flipped back to the well-worn smear page of their campaign playbook, last used against John McCain in 2000," Kerry's campaign said in a statement Sunday. Voters want to hear about the issues, "not lies and smears, and it's time the president realized that."

A new Kerry campaign ad says Bush smeared McCain four years ago and "Now, he's doing it to John Kerry."

A former Vietnam prisoner of war, McCain lost the South Carolina Republican primary in 2000 after Bush supporters accused him of opposing legislation to help military veterans. McCain never recovered from that primary loss.

Former Sen. Bob Dole, a World War II veteran and 1996 Republican presidential nominee, suggested Kerry apologize for his 1971 testimony to Congress about atrocities U.S. soldiers allegedly committed in Vietnam.

Dole, who has a disabled right arm from war wounds, said Kerry received an early exit from combat for "superficial wounds." He called on the nominee to release all of his Vietnam service records.

Dole told CNN's "Late Edition" in relation to Kerry: "I respect his record. But three Purple Hearts and never bled that I know of. I mean, they're all superficial wounds. Three Purple Hearts and you're out."

Crewmate Sandusky said Monday, "I was there when he got wounded. I saw the blood. I don't care what Dole said."
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 12:54 pm
Why should he criticize anyone? Don't they have a right to speak out if they wish? If he criticized them, would he not be in effect criticizing American's right to free speech? I don't remember him criticizing F9/11, possibly for the same reason. The freedom to express political beliefs.

I think he did exactly what should have been done. Called on them and the democratic counterparts to cease putting out ads that attack the candidates.

Of course, what he said will not be enough for anyone who thinks Bush was directing the actions of the Swift Boat Veterans.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 03:47 pm
Calling a truce is probably what Bush and/or Rove had in mind all along.

Nobody on either side is doubting that Bush Jr was moved to the head of the line of men waiting to enter flight school for his particular model of plane. That is not even in question.

Now, how would Bush get moved ahead? Well, his father is a Congressman, his great uncle was a Senator. If anyone has a better reason than family connections, I certainly would like to hear it.

Flight school takes two years. As a Congressman, Bush Sr was certainly in a position to know that the plane his son was training for was scheduled to be replaced in VietNam by a different model, one which his son would not be certified to fly. So by the time his son graduated flight school, Bush Sr must have known that his son would not be sent to VietNam, as there would be no more planes left for him to fly there.

How this looks to you probably depends on how you feel about things. After all, Clinton went through incredible gymnastics not to be in uniform at all. Bush was active service two years. But Clinton organized protests to try to prevent anyone else from being sent over to VietNam either. Sure he got out, but he went through much effort to get everyone else out, too.

Bush, on the other hand, has never come out against the war in VietNam. And he went in for active duty for two years. But he accepted special favors to prevent himself from being exposed to the war.

To some people, Clinton's antiwar activity means he is not a hypocrite, and gets him off the hook for VietNam. To others, the antiwar movement was composed of people who did not wish to meet their obligations in a free country and used "principle" as a cover. However, among this latter group will be a sizable number of people who, upon finding out that Bush pulled strings in order to prevent being sent to VietNam, will immediately consider Bush no better than a Clinton and won't vote for him. To this group, active duty is not "service" if you finagle your way out of being sent to war. If the government puts you somewhere and you never end up going, fine. But if you arrange it so that you don't go, (therefore meaning someone else has to take your place), then that is not acceptable.

This latter group is likely to be conservative, therefore Republican. So the more we dwell on the circumstances of Bush's non-VietNam appearance, the more vets will either switch to Kerry or not vote at all. As this is a group any Republican is expected to draw from, lack of support from them is serious business.

What to do? Grab a bunch of old drunks off the bar stool at the VFW who are bitter about VietNam, and have them lie through their teeth to run down Kerry. Hopefully, said lying drunks will be effective enough for Kerry to call a truce, thereby giving Bush relief from having the fact that strings were pulled to get him out of VietNam.

To briefly summarize, since Bush's questionable military record is possibly damaging to his conservative constituency, attacking Kerry's stellar record in the hopes that Kerry will ask for a truce makes sense.
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Thok
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Aug, 2004 01:32 am
McCain should be immediatley go the the democrats. :-)

McCain Could Wind Up in Swift Boat Crossfire

Quote:


Link
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Aug, 2004 11:43 am
in spite of of McCain condemnation the accusations against Kerry and in spite of of the fact that I used to like him, I am now feeling the same way about him as I do about Powell. A couple of Uncle Toms of the Bush administration wanting to ride both sides of the fence despite their underlying true feelings on the matter.

(just my view on things, no proof of anything)
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Aug, 2004 01:48 pm
Vetting free speech not such a swift idea

-Jonah Goldberg

The Swift Boat Vets for Truth have started a tragic, stupid argument.

Oh, I don't mean the factual debate about John Kerry's war record. I'm referring to the argument over what sort of speech should be permitted during an election campaign.

As for the steady bleeding the Kerry campaign has suffered over the Swift Boat controversy itself, let's just say it was a self-inflicted wound. No president in recent memory has more explicitly run as a war hero. In fact, until recently, you rarely heard a presidential contender bragging about his war record, because pretty much every major politician had served in uniform.

John Kerry is different. Because the Democrats have been perceived, rightly, as weak on defense in general, and because Kerry in particular has been among America's most dovish senators, his campaign thought it necessary to treat his 20 years in the Senate as an asterisk and his four months in Vietnam as his "record." The Democratic Convention, which everyone hailed as brilliantly scripted by the Kerry campaign, made Kerry's Vietnam service the focal point of everything. His biographical film barely mentioned his political career, and his speech began with Kerry saluting and declaring that he was "reporting for duty."

But now Kerry says that his service is off-limits to criticism and inquiry. What nonsense.

It's even more absurd considering that Kerry's campaign and the DNC have said repeatedly that Bush and Cheney don't have the right to criticize even Kerry's legislative record because they didn't serve in Vietnam. Several times, when Republicans attacked Kerry's dovish positions on the MX missile, B-1 bomber and Tomahawk missile, the Kerry campaign immediately accused the GOP of "questioning" Kerry's patriotism and "re-opening the wounds" of Vietnam.

So now it is Vietnam vets - indeed, men who served in the same waters and in the same unit as Kerry - who are raising questions about Kerry's service, and we are told that they have no right to do so, either. Remember, half of the Swifties' case against Kerry has to do with what he said when he returned from Vietnam - about participating in, witnessing, and otherwise having knowledge of horrendous "routine" war crimes committed by American forces in Vietnam. And they have no right to call him to account?

I don't buy the "you can't judge if you weren't there" argument, whether it's touted by people on the left or the right. But since the Democrats have invested so much in it this year, it's particularly galling for them to say that 17 of Kerry's 23 fellow swift boat officers have no right to speak. If they don't, who does?

And speaking of rights, nowhere is this argument dumber than where it crosses paths with the First Amendment. The Kerry campaign wants the book "Unfit For Command" pulled from the shelves. The Bush Campaign has been bullied into "condemning" all 527s - the "independent" political organizations that have spent nearly $250 million since 2003. Of course, the Kerry campaign and the largely supportive media establishment think Bush should condemn only the Swift Vets. They don't think Moveon.org, America Coming Together and all of the lavishly funded "independent" liberal interest groups need much condemning at all.

Howard Dean says President Bush should "apologize to the American people" for breaking the law because an unpaid volunteer to a Bush campaign advisory committee appears as one of the talking heads in one of the Swift Boat ads. Of course, the Bush campaign has disavowed any ties, but the media starts from the presupposition that Bush is lying.

Meanwhile, America Coming Together has hired John Kerry's former campaign manager, Jim Jordan. Moveon.org has been embraced by the Democrats in myriad ways for years now. Mr. and Mrs. Kerry have even participated personally in events funded by MoveOn.org.

But all of that is just the usual cocktail of media double standards and hypocrisy typical of presidential election years. What is so thoroughly absurd and tragic is how we've come to accept as the "enlightened" position in America that political speech needs to be regulated as much as the instructions on prescription drugs. These 527s are the inevitable consequence of the fact that Americans who don't have the opportunity to appear on television or write columns for newspapers want to have a voice in politics. They're also the result of the fact that very rich people - like George Soros - can always find a way to be heard. Campaign finance "reform" holds that only "legitimate" voices can be heard in a democracy, which should be repugnant to the crowd that usually waxes pious about First Amendment rights.

Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" is surely as dishonest as anything the Swift vets can be alleged to have made up. Why not try to ban Moore from making movies?

The notion that, politically or legally, only some people have the "right" to say something during an election runs completely counter to the core intent of the First Amendment. But, hey, what right do I have to say that?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Aug, 2004 04:27 pm
Straw man.

Noone's saying the SVFT should be banned.

We just sayin' they be lyin'.

Even Dean is merely saying that the presidential campaign should stick to the law and keep/get its fingers out of this venture.

Not the same as saying that the SVFT themselves should be forbidden "the right to say something during an election".

They just be lyin'.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Aug, 2004 06:29 pm
New statement from McCain, who continues to show himself as the statesman he is :
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0825mccain25-ON.html
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Aug, 2004 06:33 pm
Thanks Joe.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Aug, 2004 06:35 pm
Interesting ...

Quote:
McCain, who led a seven-year fight to reform the nation's campaign finance laws, also said he's angry with the "corrupt" Federal Election Commission for not enforcing campaign finance laws against "527" groups, which are named for the section of the tax code that applies to them.

The independent, unregulated political action committees have produced ads against both Kerry and Bush this year. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is one such group.

"I never believed the Federal Election Commission - as corrupt as they are - would act in direct contravention to existing law and a U.S. Supreme Court decision that declared the constitutionality of (campaign finance laws)," McCain said.

He specifically criticized FEC Chairman Bradley Smith and Vice chair Ellen Weintraub, calling Smith a "right-wing ideologue" and Weintraub a "political apparatchik" who won't enforce the law.

Ian Stirton, a spokesman for the FEC, declined comment on McCain's remarks.
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Moatengator
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2004 04:53 pm
McCain condemns ad, Kerry's commander backs off
Nixon's press conference, when he said "There are no American combat troops in Cambodia," was not in December of '68 or January of '69. It was on November 12, 1971, long after Kerry had left Viet Nam. So Kerry was flat-out lying when he said that it was "seared -- seared" in his memory "what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia."

http://pherrett.blogspot.com/2004_08_15_pherrett_archive.html

(Also, Kerry's claim that he was shot at by the Khmer Rouge is unlikely to be true; see for example http://instapundit.com/archives/017097.php ).

As to the question of whether it was Christmas or not, I don't think you're supposed to throw in little lies here and there for rhetorical effect, anyway, in sworn testimony. And I don't see how Kerry was making a "rhetorical point" by claiming he was in Cambodia in Christmas, 1968. He was making a factual claim that is in reality not true.

sozobe wrote:
The Christmas part is not the point, though. It's not a story about how the kind little Cambodian children brought him a little scraggly Christmas tree since he was so far from home, and he was touched, and their kindness was seared into his memory. It wasn't that his buddy couldn't talk to his fiance on Christmas day and tried to be stoic and Kerry gave him a rousing Christmas speech and restored his morale. The point of that statement is that the President of the United States told a bold-faced lie -- there were no troops in Cambodia when Kerry, a troop (a troop? whatever), was there. A statement in the context of other covert operations (Central America).

What was seared -- seared in his memory was "what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia."

Now if the President of the US never said that while he was in Cambodia at all, fine, I sort of get it. (Though I'd still stop well short of calling him a "pathological liar" -- he was making a rhetorical point.) But that's not even what is being said here. He said CHRISTMAS and it was actually JANUARY! Horrors!

"Pathological liar"?? Good grief.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2004 06:08 pm
NEW YORK - Americans increasingly believe President Bush (news - web sites)'s re-election campaign is behind the ads attacking Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites)'s Vietnam experience, a poll found.
Almost half in a poll taken this week say they think the president's campaign is behind the ads that try to undercut Kerry's medals for heroism while just over a third think the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is an independent group, the National Annenberg Election Survey found.

The public's belief that Kerry did not earn his medals grew to 30 percent when the attack ads got widespread publicity on cable news networks. But that number has dropped to 24 percent now.
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