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McCain condemns ad, Kerry's commander backs off

 
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 07:55 am
This was so good it bears repeating...
PDiddie wrote:
...you just happen to be completely mistaken about the facts.

So, summarizing:

While John Kerry was serving as an officer in the United States Navy, leading men in a shooting war and winning an armful of medals in the process, Bush was a male cheerleader and fraternity president at Yale. He later went on to use family connections to land a spot in the Air National Guard, duty from which he took ample time off to run losing political campaigns. Kerry became a leader in an influential movement, a candidate for office, a successful prosecutor, the Lieutenant Governor of a medium-sized state, and then a U.S. senator during a period when Bush was letting alcoholism nearly wreck his marriage, doing something with drugs he refuses to answer questions about, and running a variety of businesses into the ground, losing his dad's friends a bundle of money in the process.

Questions? :wink:


Good summary and worth repeating.

I'd like to point out that what the right refers to as "flip-flops" in the senate can hardly be valid since Kerry has the best or one of the best liberal voting records. I want my government to be liberal with civil rights, environmental protections, economic protections, and national health coverage. I hate what the Bush camp has been doing there.


Brand X -- Are you Karzak? SCROLL
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 07:56 am
This was so good it bears repeating...
PDiddie wrote:
...you just happen to be completely mistaken about the facts.

So, summarizing:

While John Kerry was serving as an officer in the United States Navy, leading men in a shooting war and winning an armful of medals in the process, Bush was a male cheerleader and fraternity president at Yale. He later went on to use family connections to land a spot in the Air National Guard, duty from which he took ample time off to run losing political campaigns. Kerry became a leader in an influential movement, a candidate for office, a successful prosecutor, the Lieutenant Governor of a medium-sized state, and then a U.S. senator during a period when Bush was letting alcoholism nearly wreck his marriage, doing something with drugs he refuses to answer questions about, and running a variety of businesses into the ground, losing his dad's friends a bundle of money in the process.

Questions? :wink:


Good summary and worth repeating.

I'd like to point out that what the right refers to as "flip-flops" in the senate can hardly be valid since Kerry has the best or one of the best liberal voting records. I want my government to be liberal with civil rights, environmental protections, economic protections, and national health coverage. I hate what the Bush camp has been doing there.


Brand X -- Are you Karzak? SCROLL
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 07:57 am
What a silly claim, Foxy. After several days of talking about Swift Boat Vets claims, even on Monday or Tuesday night Chris Mathews wasn't aware that the doctor claiming in the ad to have treated Kerry wasn't the doctor that treated him per signature on records. He seemed surprised to hear this and said someone needed to look into the allegations. Considering HE hadn't already heard this, the media can't be too leftish.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 07:57 am
Oooohh... Brand X got Scrolled! Laughing
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 08:09 am
squinney wrote:
What a silly claim, Foxy. After several days of talking about Swift Boat Vets claims, even on Monday or Tuesday night Chris Mathews wasn't aware that the doctor claiming in the ad to have treated Kerry wasn't the doctor that treated him per signature on records. He seemed surprised to hear this and said someone needed to look into the allegations. Considering HE hadn't already heard this, the media can't be too leftish.


Dr. Letson who treated Kerry for the for the first medal rarely signed those papers, it was signed by a coreman who is an assistant, not a doctor.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 08:13 am
Quote:
Brand X -- Are you Karzak? SCROLL


No, and I don't even play Karzak on TV, I just like to get PDiddie fired up...not that it's hard to bring his obsession to the surface at all. :wink:
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 08:16 am
So, Letson is what? Charging that his assistant falsified documents? Military documents, at that? Com' on!

If the valor and praise given to Kerry in his records were not warranted then his commanding officer and the Swift Boat Vets that were with him in war need to be reprimanded and stripped of their own medals.

Did any of those against Kerry receive medals? Did they not receive the same praise of their unit as Kerry since they were all there together? Now that they are disputing the "under fire" claim, these records need to be removed from their files too, right?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 08:20 am
Why won't Kerry sign the Form 180? Why aren't the alphabet news services yammering about it like they did about Bush's 'missing' pay records?
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 08:55 am
Military form 180
Foxfyre, perhaps they are not yammering because Kerry never went AWOL.

Military form 180:

http://www.archives.gov/facilities/mo/st_louis/military_personnel_records/standard_form_180.html
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 09:00 am
No evidence Bush ever went AWOL either BBB - he was never written up or reprimanded for being AWOL and his record shows he served his required 8 years and received an honorable discharge. The 'missing pay records' were found.

Why won't Kerry sign the Form 180 and get the records we haven't seen? If these would put to rest the accusations leveled by the Swiftboat Veterans for truth, wouldn't you think he would get them out there and get past this?
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 09:01 am
Bush
Has anyone noticed that Bush didn't seek active duty until he could be commander in chief? He seemed to be concerned about his safety, so he didn't put himself in harm's way until he had special home and transporation protection such as armoured cars and Airforce One, secret service protection, US military protection, authority to send others to due his killing for him, and considerable immunity from any consequences from his leadership.

Very clever, that Bush.

BBB
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 09:17 am
Foxfyre
Foxfyre, do you have time to read Kerry's records?

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 09:20 am
I have read Kerry's records BBB. And I will remind you that it is proven that Bill Clinton actively dodged the draft to keep from serving. Bush at least gave eight years to the country and put himself at risk of being called up which Clinton did not. So let's don't even go there.

Why do you think Kerry is refusing to sign the Form 180?
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 09:28 am
Foxfyre
Foxfyre, why don't you release your income tax forms for the last 20 years in order to qualify to prove you are worthy of being a member of A2K? The Albuquerque gathering could review them over cups of coffee. Three liberals and three conservatives. Sounds fair to me.

BBB :wink:
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 09:29 am
Puhleeeeze, if Fox was running for treasurer of A2K it would be one thing....
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 09:31 am
Panzade
Panzade, where's your sense of humor? I know it is a stretch but tax forms and military form 180 are both government forms and I had to find some common link since Foxfyre wasn't in the military.

BBB :wink:
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 09:35 am
Hold on BBB....it was...somewhere around ....here... :wink:
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 09:39 am
Re: Bush
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Has anyone noticed that Bush didn't seek active duty until he could be commander in chief? He seemed to be concerned about his safety, so he didn't put himself in harm's way until he had special home and transporation protection such as armoured cars and Airforce One, secret service protection, US military protection, authority to send others to due his killing for him, and considerable immunity from any consequences from his leadership.

Very clever, that Bush.

BBB


Crap.

Quote:
F-102, Vietnam & George W. Bush

... It is a common misconception that the Air National Guard was a safe place for military duty during the Vietnam War. In actuality, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam at the very time Bush enlisted. In fact, F-102 squadrons had been stationed in South Vietnam since March 1962. It was during this time that the Kennedy administration began building up a large US military presence in the nation as a deterrent against North Vietnamese invasion.

F-102 squadrons continued to be stationed in South Vietnam and Thailand throughout most of the Vietnam War. The planes were typically used for fighter defense patrols and as escorts for B-52 bomber raids. While the F-102 had few opportunities to engage in its primary role of fighter combat, the aircraft was used in the close air support role starting in 1965. Armed with rocket pods, Delta Daggers would make attacks on Viet Cong encampments in an attempt to harass enemy soldiers. Some missions were even conducted using the aircraft's heat-seeking air-to-air missiles to lock onto enemy campfires at night. Though these missions were never considered to be serious attacks on enemy activity, F-102 pilots did often report secondary explosions coming from their targets.

These missions were also dangerous, given the risks inherent to low-level attacks against armed ground troops. A total of 14 or 15 F-102 fighters were lost in Vietnam. Three were shot down by anti-aircraft or small arms fire, one is believed to have been lost in air-to-air combat with a MiG-21, four were destroyed on the ground during Viet Cong attacks, and the remainder succumbed to training accidents.

Even in peacetime conditions, F-102 pilots risked their lives on every flight. Only highly-qualified pilot candidates were accepted for Delta Dagger training because it was such a challenging aircraft to fly and left little room for mistakes. According to the Air Force Safety Center, the lifetime Class A accident rate for the F-102 was 13.69 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, much higher than the average for today's combat aircraft. For example, the F-16 has an accident rate of 4.14, the F-15 is at 2.47, the F-117 at 4.07, the S-3 at 2.6, and the F-18 at 4.9. Even the Marine Corps' AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in US service today, has a lifetime accident rate of only 11.44 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush's tenure. Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots.

Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, pilots from the 147th FIG of the Texas ANG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for periods of three to six months for frontline duty. Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants ...

... As he was completing training and being certified as a qualified F-102 pilot, Bush's squadron was a likely candidate to be rotated to Vietnam. However, the F-102 was built for a type of air combat that wasn't seen during that conflict, and the plane was withdrawn from southeast Asia in December 1969. The F-102 was instead returned to its primary role of providing air defense for the United States. In addition, the mission of Ellington AFB, where Bush was stationed, was also changing from air defense alert to training all F-102 pilots in the US for Air National Guard duty. Lt. Bush remained in the ANG as a certified F-102 pilot who participated in frequent drills and alerts through April of 1972.

By this time, the 147th Fighter Wing was also beginning to transition from the F-102 to the F-101F, an updated version of the F-101B used primarily for air defense patrols. Furthermore, the war in Vietnam was nearing its end and the US was withdrawing its forces from the theater. Air Force personnel returning to the US created a glut of active-duty pilots, and there were not enough aircraft available to accommodate all of the qualified USAF and ANG pilots. Since USAF personnel had priority for the billets available, many of the Air National Guard pilots whose enlistments were nearly complete requested early release. The ANG was eager to fulfill these requests because there was not enough time to retrain F-102 pilots to operate new aircraft before their enlistments were up anyway. Bush was one of those forced out by the transition, and he was honorably discharged as a first lieutenant in October 1973, eight months before his six-year enlistment was complete. Bush had approximately 600 flight hours by the time he completed his military service ...
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 09:40 am
I personally think this whole issue is so dumb that it is ridiculous.

Kerry served in Vietnam, he did his duty and was given medal and awards. If ya'll think he was given those awards and medal wrongly, as you say so often foxfrye, take it up with the army people or whoever in charge of such things. Clinton freely admits that he dodged vietnam, bush does not, but then one wouldn't expect him to.

I don't think it matters one way or another about who served in vietnam 30 years ago. what matters is what they say about it. bush lies about it although his lies are washington lies and cannot be proven. if he just said, yea, i went into the reserve to avoid active duty in vietnam just like a lot of people did if they could have gotten away with it; i don't think anyone would have held it against him and the issue would be dead. after all a lot of people was against that war at that time; it was a bad war and kerry was right to come home and protest about it and tell of the bad things that happened there and i am proud of him for having done so. Also who wants to go to war and be killed? I know that if I was a guy around that time that the draft was still active; I sure wouldn't have wanted to go to vietnam and die in a jungle far from home.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 09:42 am
Like I said before. This pissing contest is a colossal waste of time and detracts from the issues at hand.
0 Replies
 
 

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