Frank Apisa may be right about religion but he would be happier in his opinions if he would find some understanding that "religion" is not God.
I don't think any of the vicious, sick talk of God telling people to kill each other (in the Bible) is God talking. Certainly, positively, NOT God. Neither do I think we have to "understand" who exactly is talking.
People have always condoned bad behavior, why not, when our "creator" is such an angry, jealous, murdering God. It is our BELIEFS we have to change. We cannot change behavior first, as behavior comes from the beliefs we hold in mind.
Not all spiritual teachings say that "God" killed people and is so intolerant that he/she makes choices between us, as if some of us are better somehow than others? I don't think so!
My take on forgiveness
Hi, All!
I think forgiveness doesn't work unless one knows how to forgive others and, most especially, onself. If we don't think we deserve forgiveness, then we actually feel frustrated when we are forgiven. The same goes for the experience of love.
Ever been loved when you don't you think you deserve it? Ever been forgiven when you don't think you deserve it? The experience can be more painful than immediately helpful (although it can eventually free you and guide you). Think of a time when you were showered with love by a loved one when you know you just did something wrong (it doesn't have to be very evil) and feel guilt for it. It doesn't feel good at all. You almost wish you got punishment instead of love. We fear unconditional love and forgiveness and just pretend it isn't real to escape just how scary the thought is.
If you don't believe in it, if you don't live it, then you can't feel it's joy. So, in this manner, you cannot enter Heaven.
I think Chrisianity is all about forgiveness. Is it escapist? Well, based on what I said above, no. It can hurt quite a lot.
I wrote an article on a similar thread once and it's pretty long. I don't know if anyone is interested in reading it as it is a few years old and it was featured in some other site. I can post it hear or in the original works section if anyone is interested in seeing this train of thought in more detail.
howarddygo, it's true we can't love anyone else until we love ourselves. We can't love anything at all until unless we understand it. So, to begin with, study yourself, understand yourself. Then, you will be able to love yourself. That is FIRST!
As for forgiveness, nobody is forgiven until they apologize and make amends. Before we can make amends we must first understand what we did. When we ask another for forgiveness we could explain what we think we did, and ask if that is true. Then we make discover how we hurt someone else and we will feel their pain (if we are sincere). Only, then, can we forgive ourselves.
People think they can look to God. Look to and at yourself. Own your problem, be responsible and mature. Do something for yourself, then you may get "God"'s attention.
That would be true if I believed that:
1. One needed to get God's attention.
2. Real understanding comes before love.
3. Forgiveness, by definition, required restitution.
But, I don't.
I think that:
1. God loves us all (and is therefore giving us His attention) already.
2. Loving makes us know ourselves and this loving leads us to become better people.
3. Forgiveness can make us better only if it is unconditional.
Still, in a sense, I agree with your ideas, just not the principles behind them.
Should I delete my post above?
Dear All,
I just noticed that the thread has stopped here. Were my words or article too strong or so personal that it stopped the movement of this forum?
I hope it is not regarded this way, it is a point of view I believe in, but all points for debate are ultimately grounded on belief. Otherwise, everyone with enough intelligence would agree on everything and there would be no points of contention. I hope the debate for this topic remains healthy for one and all.
If my reply above is holding things back, could someone please advise me, so I can just delete it?
Thanks!
howard it was to much for one message
Edited the long reply
Thanks, husker.
Deleted the long section of the originally long reply and changed a line or two.
I placed the article in the original writing section. Should have placed it there from the start. I apologize for my mistake.
