Reply
Wed 4 Aug, 2004 06:04 pm
Let's say that a man, let's call him Jim, has led a rather poor life. He was a high school dropout, spent time in juvenile hall and prisons. He used drugs, murdered three or four people, has raped several women, and throughout the course of his life stole thousands of dollars in merchandise.
Before dying of an STD at the age of 29, Jim gets down on his knees and asks the Lord's forgiveness. Does he go to Heaven? Is it so that he can have committed any amount of any acts, be they specifically forbidden by the Ten Commandments or just morally wrong, and as long as he begs God's forgiveness he shall be granted it? Somehow that doesn't seem right. And yet, it says in the Bible that God is all-forgiving; a nice thought, but can that truly be the case?
I'm not sure about this one, just wanted some feedback.
It's deceptive to set oneself up for disappointment. How? By creating "what if" situations where Gods legendary mercy will have him fail. It's also tempting to place that "failure" in a dramatic setting like the hereafter. That makes the make-believe failure even more unjust.
Yours is an excellent example.
Believers are used to doubters who, in their lack of faith, turn to this sort of "test of belief" to refute the notion of a forgiving and a just Higher Power.
Believers will welcome you in your disbelief, forgive you for your doubts and ask you to accept thier gratitude for testing their belief in a just and merciful Lord.
PS: The more practical ones may ask you to focus on "Life after Birth" and to leave heaven for later.
I think that the concept of an all-forgiving god is one of Christianity's greatest fallacies, and also part of the religion's appeal through the ages. It always seemed like a cop-out to me, "do what you want, as long as you confess before you die". I think it's a load of crap, but then again, I am a secularist. As Chuckster pointed out, "Life after Birth" is more important.
Cav is not alone in reading forgiveness as some "silly-assed" license-to-steal. To understand the power of forgiveness as a potent life-affirming concept is to gain insight on why religious belief systems are so powerful.
They work.
How and why they work is based on an underlying principle that: ( Hold your Breathe!!!!)--- Man is Good!
We want guys like Cav and you in tha Big Leagues. You're both naturals. With some coaching, you would be Big Stars.
OK, I think there has been a little confusion about the nature of repentance. The idea as I know it is not that you "do what you want, as long as you confess before you die". It is rather the faith that even the greatest sinner may be redeemed if it is in his or her heart to change. Not simply confessing every little thing you did, but actually feeling true remorse.
The idea is that, no matter how bad you have been in the past, if you want to change, God is willing to forgive you and wipe the slate clean.
Chuckster wrote:Cav is not alone in reading forgiveness as some "silly-assed" license-to-steal. To understand the power of forgiveness as a potent life-affirming concept is to gain insight on why religious belief systems are so powerful.
They work.
How and why they work is based on an underlying principle that: ( Hold your Breathe!!!!)--- Man is Good!
We want guys like Cav and you in tha Big Leagues. You're both naturals. With some coaching, you would be Big Stars.
I'm with you on this one, but I'll pass on the coaching. Thanks anyway. Do you have coupons? I can pass them out to a few of the hopefuls.
Ya still got a good throwing arm Cav. ( The Duke and tha Gipper are both askin' ya ta take tha mound. )
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You decide to get into this and we'll getcha a church...steeple and all.
How does the name: "Church of the Rotten Shepard" grab ya?
Chuckster wrote:Ya still got a good throwing arm Cav. ( The Duke and tha Gipper are both askin' ya ta take tha mound. )
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You decide to get into this and we'll getcha a church...steeple and all.
How does the name: "Church of the Rotten Shepard" grab ya?
I have no idea of who you speak of....Duke and Gipper? Heck, I'm not even a 'Merican. I would have preferred to discuss the concept of forgiveness in perhaps, Philosophy and Debate, rather than in a religious context, given that I think religion is pile of crap. Play on, throw the ball.
In Islam we believe that if someone really asked for forgivness from his deep heart, then the sins related to God and not related to other human beings will be forgiven such as not praying, drinking alcohol, fornication, drugs....
But those aggressions against other people and related to human rights will not be forgiven and an account must be paid on Judgement Day.
Unless other people whom he has hurt forgive him, he will not be forgiven and he will be punished.
Just imagine yourself a victim of such guy, then you will dwell with him in heaven just as simple as that!!! Just how can you worship such an Unjust god????
God is the Absolute Justice and will no permitt this to happen!!!
I can understand that point of view. However, the christian view is different, it takes into account the imperfection of humanity. Often people are simply unable to forgive, no matter how deserving a person might be or how honest their attempt at reformation is. So what do you do when the person you have wronged will not give you forgivness, no matter how hard you seek it? Are you damned anyway?
The Jewish view is similar to the Muslim one. In the Jewish one, if you have made 3 separate and sincere attempts to seek forgiveness and the other person still does not forgive you, then you are free of your obligation and the person is guilty of the sin of stone-heartedness. I think that's what the sin is, not sure.
Interesting, a mid-point...
Hi Fortune and Dauer
I read this and I want to share it with you:
Quote:Oklahoma City bombing conspirator Terry Nichols addressed a court for the first time Monday, asking for forgiveness and offering to help victims' families with the healing process as he was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole on 161 state charges. "My heart truly goes out to all the victims and survivors and to everyone who was affected by the Oklahoma City bombing," Nichols said. "Words cannot adequately express the sorrow I have felt over the years for the grief they have all suffered."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=US&cat=Oklahoma_City_Bombing
Now Nichols regrets his actions and ask for forgivness from victims, so should we give him his freedom? And is he free of his obligation and the victims relatives are guilty of the sin of stone-heartedness?
A relative cannot forgive for the sin of murder. It must be the individual. That individual is now dead and cannot forgive the murderer. The murderer will carry this guilt the rest his life, even if he does find ways to rise above it and do good.
It would make sense for him to try to do good in this world to make up for what he has taken away and to find a way to make peace within himself. There is nothing wrong with the relatives consoling him, but according to Judaism they don't have the power to forgive him.
Also, the consequences of one's actions and being forgiven for them are two separate issues. Often they coincide. Sometimes they do not.
This is an Islamic perspective also.
Islam and Judaism have many and many things in common.
God bless
You don't differentiate between true repentance and a death bed confession to save himself.
Thalion, I'm not sure who this is addressed to. I will answer because I made the last statement besides cyanure.
That's not what the issue is. He can truly repent, but he cannot give back the life he ended. The only one who can forgive him is the one he murdered. A relative cannot forgive him. This does not condemn him to hell. There is no Jewish hell. In fact, this individual may very well end up in the Jewish equivalent to heaven eventually. I've gone over the Jewish afterlife in a few threads here so I'm just linking you somewhere.
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm#Gan
You don't have to check it out but it does explain what could possibly happen to this individual according to a traditional Jewish position.
God isn't unjust, people are. That's why we need forgiveness.
Re: God's Forgiveness
God is a very forgiving God, He will always be there even in this case. Jesus says you have to repent, which means turn away from sin. Anycase can be viewed as forgivable. You have to turn away from your former life and live life for him and only him.
Remember: God is so good, By the strips on his back we are HEALED!!
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