Of course God is all-forgiving. But, certainly nobody can be forgiven by "God" if they don't believe in that existence. We have to believe we are forgiven, actually feel it deeply and feel remorse. We also should be willing to pay the consequences of what we did to another, and make life-sweeping changes. The word "repent" means to change our life. However else would anyone be able to go about their life "and sin no more" if they don't even think they have been forgiven.
sunlover wrote:Of course God is all-forgiving. But, certainly nobody can be forgiven by "God" if they don't believe in that existence. We have to believe we are forgiven, actually feel it deeply and feel remorse. We also should be willing to pay the consequences of what we did to another, and make life-sweeping changes. The word "repent" means to change our life. However else would anyone be able to go about their life "and sin no more" if they don't even think they have been forgiven.
And then of course...there simply may not be a God at all.
A theology that gives so much weight to BELIEF is extremely silly. Imagine a God whose major concern is whether or not human beings believe in his existence despite a total lack of evidence. Gullibility becomes the prime virtue, trumping kindness and love. How silly.
JLNobody wrote:A theology that gives so much weight to BELIEF is extremely silly. Imagine a God whose major concern is whether or not human beings believe in his existence despite a total lack of evidence. Gullibility becomes the prime virtue, trumping kindness and love. How silly.
Theology is just the study of God - a discipline like any other 'ology" Belief has nothing necessarily to do with studying God. On the other hand I think a
religion without belief is silly.
When I commit an act that is against my ideal, or even think about some transgression, I forgive myself and move on, try to improve the next time the mere thought comes into my head.
In the movie, "Ray" Ray Charles at some point in his rather difficult life told "God." "I am your equal..." Yes, of course he was God's equal. He took his lumps, bumps and horrors and kept moving forward without dwelling on the small ****. He knew his future and he wasn't going to refuse to show up for the success part, thinking that this "God" hates him.
We discover who and what "God" is through our own experiences and, of course, study and thought and meditation and prayer......and......
sunlover wrote:When I commit an act that is against my ideal, or even think about some transgression, I forgive myself and move on, try to improve the next time the mere thought comes into my head.
In the movie, "Ray" Ray Charles at some point in his rather difficult life told "God." "I am your equal..." Yes, of course he was God's equal. He took his lumps, bumps and horrors and kept moving forward without dwelling on the small ****. He knew his future and he wasn't going to refuse to show up for the success part, thinking that this "God" hates him.
We discover who and what "God" is through our own experiences and, of course, study and thought and meditation and prayer......and......
Possibly.
Then again...those of you think that you do...may be deluding yourselves.
Perhaps there is no God. Perhaps even if there is a God...it is not the kind of God who sees good and bad...and who is in the least bit interested in humanity.
What kinds of things do atheists and agnostics hope for? Or is hope also the realm of the weak and anti-intellectual? This question is posed to the general populace of the Spirituality and Religion piece of A2K.
snood wrote:What kinds of things do atheists and agnostics hope for?
I cannot speak for all atheists and agnostics
but I suspect most of us "hope" for a decent life and, ultimately, a peaceful death for ourselves
and we "hope" those same things for the rest of humanity.
I certainly do
and I am an agnostic.
I also hope that if there is a God
.particularly if there is a God that has something planned for the "me that I think exists" after that "me" dies
that the God is nothing like the gods currently being worshipped on this planet.
Same for me Frank. I would also hope that the world is not blown apart because of the folly of those theists who would wipe out the existence of the earth attempting to prove that their God is better than other peoples' Gods!
Phoenix32890 wrote:Same for me Frank. I would also hope that the world is not blown apart because of the folly of those theists who would wipe out the existence of the earth attempting to prove that their God is better than other peoples' Gods!
You will excuse the expression...but...AMEN!
Just my humble opinion, but I think intellectualism can be taken to extremes as readily as religious dogma. And (though I certainly haven't the motivation to do it today) I think a valid argument could be made that significant damage has been done by those who believe in nothing more than what lies between their ears.
snood wrote:Just my humble opinion, but I think intellectualism can be taken to extremes as readily as religious dogma. And (though I certainly haven't the motivation to do it today) I think a valid argument could be made that significant damage has been done by those who believe in nothing more than what lies between their ears.
Perhaps you are correct...but I think even more has been done be people foolish enough to suppose that people who do not buy into current mythology...somehow "believe" in nothing more than what lies between their ears.
Sounds like the old "I'd rather be dead than red" argument.
There are other choices.
Snood, in one version (the one preferred by Nietzsche), when Pandora's Box was opened, all but one of the furies escaped to bring havoc upon Man. The one that remained was HOPE--in order to prolong Man's suffering.
Again I agree with Phoenix:
"Same for me Frank. I would also hope that the world is not blown apart because of the folly of those theists who would wipe out the existence of the earth attempting to prove that their God is better than other peoples' Gods!"
A major problem with most religions (this would not include, of course, the likes of zen buddhists and unitarian universalists) is that their absolutism provides "justification" (even mandates, e.g., the Islamists and, I fear, American fundamentalists) for the performance of the most atrocious acts of violence and cruelty. A form of absolutism is necessary to justify absolutely evil actions, always in the name of goodness (God-ness). To lack the humility of doubt is to be a very dangerous creature. This attestss to Frank's greatest (and perhaps only) virtue.
Words are only words, they can't do anything. The word "hope" to me would mean enjoying, concentrating on, whatever we're doing at any given time, not missing any opportunity to change it, improve it, attach it to something else, double it, triple it, even lose it and start all over again.
I don't think, whatever a God may be, that he/she would want to be worshipped, that is what we commonly know that word to mean. Would any of us worship our parents who gave birth to us? They wouldn't want that, heavens no, most of us as parents are constantly bringing about independence in our children.
Phoenix, what has God got to do with it? People do what someone else tells them to do, don't think for themselves. They despise that in themselves and take that hatred out on others.
Misuse of intelligence is evil because it is arrogant and means that person has gone too far, poking their nose into the business of others.
People who don't know any better simply don't know any better. How do we know they don't know any better? Why judge?
Hmmm... hope as a perpetuator of misery...
Yup - that's one way of thinking about it...
Phoenix, it is a hidious thing that humanity behaves in this manner because of misunderstanding, or the willingness of people to allow lies to rule their lives. Americans have "rationalized their concept of God to commit attrocities," aplenty. As have Europeans, who gave up religion but are now bombarded by immigrants who are as you describe.
Do you have a suggestion? I can think of none but to feel overwhelmingly lucky to live in a free society where we are free to read, study, think, change, grow, fail or succeed - not necessarily in any particular order.
