God's Forgiveness

A person must accept Jesus, the Christ, as their personal saviour first.

Then repent and ask for forgiveness of sins. And that person shall be forgiven.

Can ALL sins be forgiven then? Are there such sins that can not be forgiven by God?

Should we not concentrate on the question of whether or not WE SHOULD FORGIVE God for creating a reality so fulll of human suffering? Should we not focus on trying to forgive God for His profound narcissism, making this reality so He can be praised without limits?

Our perception of suffering means there is a reason for our awareness of it. The challenge is whether or not to act. Placing the blame on God changes nothing. I thank God for this world of human suffering because it allows for human growth and choices.

I don't view God as narcisisstic. We have been been placed in a position where we can choose to recognize the Source of existence and grow close to God or not.

From our position, we stumble for words. What can be said of Her? So we praise God. It is a way to reach out and grab hold of Him, draw ourselves nearer, and come to recognize that ultimately all is from God.

Why did God create this reality? I don't know. I see some people growing and some people not growing. Maybe that's it.

Dauer

dauer, I was just being rhetorical for recreational ends. I'm glad that it stimulated such interesting responses from you. As a Buddhist of sorts, I see suffering as a consequence of our own perspective, not the creation of some God. You say that you do not see God as narcissistic, but as I see the pronouncements of evangelical Christians (my brother included) THEIR God (meaning their conception of "God") is one of boundless narcissisim.

Yes, JL. Have we got beyond our egocentrism, our narcissism? That's the starting point, not the end point. And anyone is capable of this, even the worst murderers. Essentially, isn't that what redemption is all about? Not whether we're going to escape punishment in the future? That's still egocentrism.

Coluber, exactly. It's pleasant to see how similar are our perspectives.

"Fathers and teachers, I ponder, "What is hell?" I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love. Once in infinite existence, immeasurable in time and space, a spiritual creature was given on his coming to earth the power of saying, "I am and I love." Once, only once, there was given him a moment of active lifting love, and for that was earthly life given him, and with it times and seasons. And that happy creature rejected the priceless gift, prized it and loved it not, scorned it and remained callous. Such a one, having left the earth, sees Abraham's bosom and talks with Abraham as we are told in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and beholds heaven and can go up to the Lord. But that is just his torment, to rise up to the Lord without ever having loved, to be brought close to those who have loved when he has despised their love. For he sees clearly and says to himself, "Now I have understanding, and though I now thirst to love, there will be nothing great, no sacrifice in my love, for my earthly life is over, and Abraham will not come even with a drop of living water (that is the gift of earthly active life) to cool the fiery thirst of spiritual love which burns in me now, though I despised it on earth; there is no more life for me and will be no more time! Even though I would gladly give my life for others, it can never be, for that life is passed which can be sacrificed for love, and now there is a gulf fixed between that life and this existence."

"They talk of hell fire in the material sense. I don't go into that mystery and I shun it. But I think if there were fire in material sense, they would be glad of it, for I imagine that in material agony, their still greater spiritual agony would be forgotten for a moment. Moreover, that spiritual agony cannot be taken from them, for that suffering is not external but within them. And if it could be taken from them, I think it would be bitterer still for the unhappy creatures. For even if the righteous in Paradise forgave them, beholding their torments, and called them up to heaven in their infinite love, they would only multiply their torments, for they would arouse in them still more keenly a flaming thirst for responsive, active and grateful love which is now impossible. In the timidity of my heart I imagine, however, that the very recognition of this impossibility would serve at last to console them. For accepting the love of the righteous together with the impossibility of repaying it, by this submissiveness and the effect of this humility, they will attain at last, as it were, to a certain semblance of that active love which they scorned in life, to something like its outward expression... I am sorry, friends and brothers, that I cannot express this clearly. But woe to those who have slain themselves on earth, woe to the suicides! I believe that there can be none more miserable than they. They tell us that it is a sin to pray for them and outwardly the Church, as it were, renounces them, but in my secret heart I believe that we may pray even for them. Love can never be an offence to Christ. For such as those I have prayed inwardly all my life, I confess it, fathers and teachers, and even now I pray for them every day."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky - The Brothers Karamazov




I believe in God as a mechanism by which true rejection of material things, which is the cause of pain, brings "forgiveness" and "eternal life", in quality rather than duration.


"I go away, and you will seek me and die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come." --Jn 8:21

"If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know truth, and the truth will make you free." --Jn 8:31-32

"Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin."
--Jn 8:34

Any god that creates sins...doesn't deserve a capital "G"...and doesn't deserve to be worshipped.

Creates sins in what sense?

What is a sin...but something a human does that offends a god.

If the gods would stop being offended by what humans do...there would be no sin.

Sin does not exist except for a god.

Sins are harmful to the sinner. Invariably my aforementioned "mechanism" will be "displeased" and seek "vengence" on the sinner. In that sense, God must exist and must allow for Sin.

I have always thought of sin as an affront to the Supernatural, whether it be one's ancestors or gods; and crime as a violation of the laws of one's society. Since I do not acknowledge the existence of the supernatural, I feel myself to be free of sin. Since Frank is an agnostic, it would follow that he does not know if he is or is not a sinner.

As a Jew, I don't consider myself a "sinner." This idea exists in Christianity which needed a reason for salvation. Judaism is more concerned with right-action than sin. If something wrong is done, no biggie. If you recognize the mistake, make good on it. If not it's an unintentional sin and is forgiven.

That being said about the Jewish idea of sin, of which there are actually three different distinct kinds, I don't see how the existence of sins is an issue.

As a liberal Jew, the relationship between aveirah(sin) and mitvzah(commandment) is not carved in stone for me. Still, sin is not such an issue in Judaism. Right-action is.

Dauer

Good, now tell it to Sharon.

To what are you referring? It's not that I approve of all of Sharon's actions but I don't see how what I said is relevant.

It's important to note as well that while Israel is considered a Jewish state it is also a secular state and the actions of its government are not necessarily representative of Jewish ideals.

Dauer

Edit: For clarification I don't see how what I said is relevant to Sharon.

Also for clarification, Judaism doesn't just forgive anybody who commits a wrong automatically. Only unintentional sins are automatically forgiven. But if something happens between man and man, teshuva -- returning or repentance -- must be done. This may involve action to repay losses or make good on what has been done or facing the consequences of one's actions. It definitely involves seeking forgiveness. In the case of a murderer, there is nobody to forgive them because they burned that bridge. According to a traditional understanding, God will decide for them in the world-to-come. But of course, in Judaism there is no hell and they'll probably eventually be in Gan Eden anyway. Not forgiving a murderer does not mean submitting them to undue persecution or showing them no pity or love.

Even a sin against God requires teshuva, but this may be as simple as recognizes that you did something wrong and commiting not to do it again. If it happens again, it is repeated. No biggie. I believe one of the prophets said even the righeous stumble.

Hope this clarifies.

dauer, you were perfectly clear the first time. If one has to believe in sin, as opposed to mere stupidities, cruelties, crimes, I prefer the Jewish version you've just outlined (I am neither Jew nor Christian). I was just being a smart-ass, suggesting that if "right-action" is what counts most in Isreal, it's a shame that Sharon's policies and actions have not, to my mind, reflected that principle. As I see it, for the long term, Sharon is a danger to the survival of Isreal.

To me the whole first part of your post is just semantics. But I agree with what you said about Sharon.

Dauer

I think yes GOD loves all.

I think the question that launched this post is misleading. To simply ask a "yes/no" question "Is God All-Forgiving?" is to leave out some integral context. God forgives if someone repents, and he advises us to forgive a million times over if our brother asks for forgiveness. But is God all-forgiving of everything, in general? No, I don't think so. I think he is just - and that he is the final judge. And I think some things don't deserve forgiveness.