God's Forgiveness

I think we are animals with an incredibly advanced intellect that allows us the great ability to fend for ourselves and alter the world to suit our needs. Somehow we can transcend this intellect and feel a spiritual connection with all living things, but we also the have ability to get bogged down and neurotically mired in the spiritually material traps we set for ourselves. Spiritual myths are the poetry of the universe, but a fanactical clinging to them in a literal sense can have great negative ramifications that become passed on through generations.

Right now in the Middle East we have three great religions that are closely related but find it necessary to go to war to defend minor differences in their dogmas. The only thing this demonstrates is the ability of religion to reinforce neurosis. Therapy can treat neurosis, but it can't undo the deep-seated indoctrination of young children. Young children are highly suggestible, open to any message repeated over and over again whether it be religion or a philosophiccal way of looking at the world. There will come a time when indoctrination of little children is seen as child abuse, and the sooner the better.

Yes, Coluber: child abuse, because it deprives the children of their mental freedom-potential, channeling (or narrowing) their intellectual and spiritual possibilies to those of their parents.
It does seem that religions only contest minor differences (or what appear to be minor differences to outsiders). It is interesting that Protestantism is much more concerned about the deviations within the general Protestant community, and, to a lesser but significant extent, of the Roman Catholic Church. But notice how Protestants are rarely, if ever, outraged by the doctrinal differences between their beliefs and those of the Eastern Orthodox (Christian) Church, and they are virtually oblivious to the "heresies" of Islam.

God's Forgiveness
Coluber said: "I think we are animals with an incredibly advanced intellect that allows us the great ability to fend for ourselves and alter the world to suit our needs. Somehow we can transcend this intellect and feel a spiritual connection with all living things, but we also the have ability to get bogged down and neurotically mired in the spiritually material traps we set for ourselves. Spiritual myths are the poetry of the universe, but a fanactical clinging to them in a literal sense can have great negative ramifications that become passed on through generations."

Can't see there's anything in your post to disagree with, though animals as far as I can see don't have an ego. But, humans, the highest form of life on the planet definitely have that ego to contend with. The secret as we "transcend the intellect and feel a spiritual connection with all living things," I think, is to continue on with your life (no big deal). This new awareness just makes life more interesting.

I was taught "Bible" as a child but there was no "indoctrination." It did seem obvious some scripture was used as a scare tactic to bring about better behavior, or that some teachings were more or less an "ideal" that most in authority didn't follow. I knew these things then because I was not disallowed the right to discern meanings of any kind of teaching. I did not have "answers" forced into my head.

I read somewhere in my computer searches that the west was separated from the east during the middle ages, resulting in the creation of religion by those living in the western part of the world that did not benefit from eastern religious thought.

I think, whether we currently wish to or not, religions are, or will, come together. Maybe not while we live...but, why be a hindrance.

I just received a copy of that book as a sotkcing-filler for Christmas. From what you are saying, I gather that it is a pretty good read, so I'll get reading it to see what interpretations I can make out of it.

When I was in service low those many years ago there were two committed Catholics in my barracks who thought so. They would go out on a Saturday night whoring, drinking and whatever and break every commandment they could. But on Sunday they went to church and also religiously went to confession. I once asked if they thought confession absolved them of all their sins. As you can surmise the answer was yes. In answer to your question here are two fools who thought confession is the way to a guiltless afterlife. I am quite sure they are not alone.

That's interesting.

In Moishe3rd's thread on Judaism, I posting something similar to that.

PortalStar posted that it was only Protestants who believed the above, never Catholics ... something to that effect.

Where's PortalStar? I could PM her with this link as well as the link to her words on the Judaism thread, but I can't PM yet.

PortalStar, yoo hoo! :wink:

Wow...an example of hypocrisy in people who claim to be religious.

Who ever wudda thunk!


(For the learning impaired: This was all offered very sarcastically!)

I am shocked, I tell you ... just shocked! :wink:

Re: God's Forgiveness


Yeah, sunlover: The ego is a condition of a strong intellect, that is, self-awareness produces the illusion of a center of being traveling through time. We all have to learn to deal with that ego, and that's called maturity. Religion's job is to teach people to deal with it, but often it ends up just reinforcing it.

Animals don't have egos, and they probaby couldn't survive if they did. The question is will we survive, and will nature survive our egos?

Coluber:



I like that - well put.

Coluber, I like the observation that if animals had egos they could not survive. Our egos make our lives difficult (psycho-spirituallly speaking) but possible. By the way, imagine the Hell of being a snail with an ego.

I'm hoping for community service....

:wink:

Just read the following article in my local paper:

HUMANS GOT REAL SMART, REAL FAST
Study: Evolving brain's swift growth helped set us atop food chain

by Ronald Kotulak, Chicago Tribune

The first study of genes that build and operate the brain snows that humans underwent a unique period of rapid brain expansion that endowed them with a special form of intelligence not shared by any other animal, according to University of Chicago researchers.

The colossal leap forward grew the human brain to three or four times the size of that of a chimpanzee --humans' closest genetic relative -- when body sizes are equalized.

"We tend to think of our species as categorically different, being on top of the food chain," said University of Chicago geneticist Bruce Lahn. "There is some justification for that."

The dark side of this magnificent gift is that some of the genes that make for a bigger and better brain may may also be the ones that predispose people to mental disorders and addiction. Learning more about what happens when these genes go wrong could lead to new prevention strategies and treatments.

In Wed.'s issue of the journal Cell, Lahn and his colleagues, reported that 17 brain-building genes mutated at a tremendously rapid rate in humans, compared with the brains of chimpanzees, macaque monkeys, rats and mice.

In a species that was social and cooperative but had few other survival skills, being smarter meant a lot fo early humans, Lahn said. Genetic mutations that enhanced intelligence amid pressure to survive were passed on to future generations., Those not possessing the new genes eventually died off. Once started, the selection of brain building genes snowballed, resulting in thousands of changes to thousands of genes in a relatively short period, Lahn said.

"Humans evolved their cognitive abilities not due to a few accidental mutations, but rather from an enormous number of mutations acquired through exceptionally intense selection favoring more complex cognitive abilities," he said.

Lahn argues that the evolutionary forces that led to the big brain continue to act on humans and are likely to produce bigger and better brains in the future.

The researchers looked at 214 genes involved in brain development in humans, maccaques, rats and mice. (They had studied chimp genes previously).

Ninety-five of the genes, those involved in the most basic cellular functions such as energy production, remained basically the same in all 4 species for the past 80 million years, or since primates split from rodents on the evolutionary tree.

But mutations in genes that build the brain exploded in the human line when humans split from monkeys 20 to 26 million years ago, Lahn said. Rats split from mice about the same time -16 million to 23 million years ago - but did not undergo comparable changes.

The researchers found 24 genes that had undergone rapid evolutionary changes in humans and not in the other 3 species. 17 are involved in building the brain and regulating behavior, and their rate of change was two to three times greater that that of chimps.

The functions of 2 of these genes have alrady been studied in Lahn's lab: ASPM and microcephalin play a key role in making the brain bigger. Humans born with major malfunctions in either of these genes develop microcephaly, a severe reduction in the size of the cerebral cortex, the part of the brain responsible for planning, abstract reasoning and other higher cognitive function.

Among the earliest humans, it was social interactions that pushed for bigger brains, Lahn said. The social structure could be manipulated to gain more resources, and those who were the best resource providers thrived and passed their genes to future generations.

A second set of evolutionary pressures on the brain set in about 4 million years ago with the development of primitive tools and other cultural accomplishments, he said. Cultural development meant information could be passed on by learning and not only by genes.

And humans will continue to get smarter, Lahn said. "If anything, intelligence matters even more now than it has even in the recent past. Kids go through all kinds of hurdles to rise up in society, and people are constantly competing largely based on their mental capacities.

"I think that these genes are still evolving," he said.

Brain size was thought to have hit its maximum because a larger skull can't be able to squeeze through the birth canal. But Caesarean sections could eliminate that limitation, Lahn noted.

"With the C-section we have just lifted a huge barrier to how big the brain can be," he said. "I wouldn't be surprised if in a few hundred years C-sections become almost 100 percent.

Wouldn't the above article ("Human brains...." if it's completely true, make it a little easier to forgive all who lived before us, for all the stupid things they did and said?

Just to connect the study to this thread.

The wisest post on this thread was written early on: FOR THOSE WHO WISH TO REVIEW:

It is rather the faith that even the greatest sinner may be redeemed if it is in his or her heart to change. Not simply confessing every little thing you did, but actually feeling true remorse.

I also would point out MAY BE is the phrase and IF is included. "Many will call my name, but I do not know them" :wink:

Anyone who supposes "morality" "goodness" "ethics" or any of that like...

...have to do with obeying the dictates of some supposed god...and/or worshipping that gods...

...is a goddam fool.

Frank, do you mean a God-damned fool? Or perhaps a G-d-damned fool?

BTW, I think the Hindu "God", Brahma, would never damn anyone since, in doing so, It would be damning Itself.

Nope. I mean a goddam fool.

If you want...you can change that to golldanged fool! :wink:


BTW, I think the Hindu "God", Brahma, would never damn anyone since, in doing so, It would be damning Itself.[/quote]

Good for him...or her...or it!

...The road to Hell is paved with ....Franks' sliced golf balls, no wait, my bad.. Good intentions, or it that the same thing..