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Turn on the Republican convention right now! Bush Sr.'s on!

 
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 10:33 am
Seeing it requires one to pay Moore for making it. I know lots of folks who haven't seen it for that reason (I have)... and of course it was scripted... it was a speech. Laughing
Also interesting that Moore was allowed to be there. Nader you'll recall wasn't allowed to attend the Democratic Convention.
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sozobe
 
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Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 11:13 am
I mentioned the microexpressions being at odds with his words when I was heckling McCain's speech, live. (Can I do that with Bush's speech too? Please?) The micro shaded into macro when he said something about confidence in the president -- he was just plain LYING when he said that. (His eyelid flickered, one corner of his mouth was doing weird things.)
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 11:18 am
sozobe wrote:
Can I do that with Bush's speech too? Please?
Who you askin? I'm not the boss of you. :wink:
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ehBeth
 
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Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 11:19 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Seeing it requires one to pay Moore for making it. I know lots of folks who haven't seen it for that reason (I have)


Wasn't the deal, in the U.S. at least, that any profits would go to a charity of Disney's choice. Something odd like that.

In any case, having recently read a couple of biographies of Giuliani, listening to anything he says now is coming through a huge filter of fear I've developed.
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Dookiestix
 
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Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 11:27 am
OCCOM BILL opines:

Quote:
Seeing it requires one to pay Moore for making it. I know lots of folks who haven't seen it for that reason (I have)... and of course it was scripted... it was a speech.

Also interesting that Moore was allowed to be there. Nader you'll recall wasn't allowed to attend the Democratic Convention


It was an op-ed piece wrapped around visual facts. As you've seen the movie, do you believe McCain was right in stating that Michael thought Iraq was an Oasis of peace and that we shouldn't have invaded based on that premise (which is utterly false, IMO)? And do you think that Michael is against the troops, despite the fact that he featured the families of these soldiers dying in an unjust war, their misery and sacrifice, pointing out that it is predominantly the POOR who serve our country in a time of war? These are the problems with many rightwingers who refuse to see the film because they would be paying Michael Moore.

That kind of blind hatred gets us nowhere as a country.

As far as Nader is concerned, he's a PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE. Michael Moore is a guest op-ed writer for USA Today. It certainly was great that McCain had no idea he was in the audience. An unprecedented moment in convention history, to be sure.

And now, many more people will probably flock to Michael's film, since McCain gave him some GREAT television coverage the other night.

Gotta love it.
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OCCOM BILL
 
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Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 11:46 am
Michael Moore is the singing canary in the mineshaft of freedom (thanks Dennis). As long as he's breathing, I know I can say any damned thing I want, about anyone, anytime. He also encourages people to pay attention to what's going on around them. That's pretty much everything good I have to say about Michael Moore.

Dookiestix wrote:
As far as Nader is concerned, he's a PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE. Michael Moore is a guest op-ed writer for USA Today.
Nader has press credentials too. He's also 10 times closer to being a democrat than Moore is to being a Republican. No biggie. That was just an observation.

ehBeth, I have no idea where the money goes... but I thought Disney was out of it? Lightwizard?
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revel
 
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Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 11:57 am
D'artagnan wrote:
Apparently (from what I've read; didn't hear it), McCain condemned Michael Moore's film, than later admitted he hadn't seen it.

Could this have been scripted?


I haven't watched the repub. convention mostly because I don't want to contribute to their being able to brag about getting more ratings. (a little shallow of me...nobody's perfect)

So I wonder do I get to condemn the convention as a digusting con job no better than a magic act? Based on the things I have been reading from others who have seen it, that seems to be the case.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 12:00 pm
Laughing
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Dookiestix
 
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Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 12:02 pm
Larry434 wrote:

What is your beef with the Harlem Boys Choir?

Quote:
I always enjoy seeing and hearing them no matter the venue they are performing in.


I have absolutely NO beef with the Harlem Boys Choir. They are famous around the world, and sounded utterly beautiful. But they probably don't know much about the suppression of African American votes in Florida during the 2000 election.

If I was a member of the choir and knew what happened in Florida, I wouldn't have been there singing for the GOP convention.
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Dartagnan
 
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Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 12:05 pm
Most youth music groups (e.g., high school bands) would play at Satan's inauguration, if it brought them big exposure. I'd hardly count that as an endorsement...
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Dookiestix
 
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Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 12:10 pm
D'artagna:

Quote:
Most youth music groups (e.g., high school bands) would play at Satan's inauguration, if it brought them big exposure. I'd hardly count that as an endorsement...


A politically astute individual may think otherwise, because their presence alone could be "misconstrued" as an endorsement. Especially when the policies of the GOP directly contradict everything you believe in.

There are a lot of dumb Americans out there.
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Dartagnan
 
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Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 12:15 pm
Dookie:

Do you mean that adult leaders of these groups should think twice before agreeing to perform at partisan events? If so, I agree...
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Dookiestix
 
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Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 12:23 pm
That's pretty much what I'm saying. The Harlem Boys Choir has had plenty of exposure over the years. Imagine growing up after singing as a member at the GOP convention and realizing/learning that you sang for a bunch of racist cronies who disenfranchised thousands of elligible African American voters in the 2000 election.

I'd be pretty p*ssed, not only at the GOPers, but the adult leader of the group who agreed to perform for the GOP.
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Sofia
 
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Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 12:34 pm
If forcing someone to vote in their own precinct, or vote only ONCE is disenfranchisement...

There were busloads of people (mostly black) who had never voted before--who didn't know the rules of voting, who made these charges--and the partisan Democrats used the confusion to lie about Republicans.

The reason they were black was because these were the people Jesse Jackson held the most influence over. They weren't singled out for 'disenfranchisement'--they were singled out by Jackson--many of them driven in mass transit--who didn't have any history or knowledge re voting.

Many had been registered a long time ago--and hadn't voted in decades--and some had just been registered by Jackson and the Rainbow PUSH. They didn't know about Precincts--or any other rules.

I'm so tired of Dems using the poliics of racial division. There are rules to voting. People should know what they are--and follow them.
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sozobe
 
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Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 12:42 pm
No, Sofia, there is much more to it than that. It has to do with ex-convicts, and a whole bunch of others who were "scrubbed" from the voter rolls in Florida in 2000, by Katharine Harris (?) and others with specific Republican ties. It's pretty stinky all around. I don't remember details right now, nor do I have the time -- hopefully someone else will step in. But much, much more than what you say above.
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 12:47 pm
There have been recent articles about this, sozobe. The idea that this is all about Jesse Jackson trying to get fake voters to register reminds me of the rhetoric one used to hear from the powers-that-be in the South in the good old days.

There would have been no problems (and no black voters) if it weren't for those outside agitators...
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Sofia
 
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Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 12:49 pm
I don't pretend to know of every complaint, and the story behind them all--but the scenario I explained previously WAS in fact the source of many false complaints.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 12:53 pm
I didn't even say they were illegitimate voters. I said they were either first time voters, who were trying to vote in the wrong precinct, or people, who had voted decades ago--and again were either in the wrong place, or didn't have their voter registration cards (or their names weren't found on voter lists) or were in some way not prepared to vote legally.

When they were told..."You have to go to the Seventh Precinct" many people said--"You're trying to keep me from voting..." In that horrible climate, mountains were made of molehills--and false accusations were made.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 12:54 pm
Isn't it a federal law--convicts lose the right to vote?
Some of them?
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 12:57 pm
That is an opinion, a neoconservative scribe if I ever heard one, Sofia.

Now here's what happened:

Quote:
Winning the Election - The Republican Way: Racism, Theft and Fraud in Florida

by Liam Scheff

When future historians want to know what happened to America in 2000, they'll read Greg Palast's The Best Democracy Money Can Buy. The book follows the paper trail of perjury, deception and incompetence left by the Bush family, and the billionaires who fund them, as they trample through the world - from mining disaster cover-ups to the California energy scandal to the pre-9/11 intelligence black-out that let a handful of Saudi terrorists slip past the NSA, FBI and CIA.

The book also uncovers inside documents on the IMF and World Bank, Pat Robertson?'s unholy money-schemes, and the co-opted US media that won?'t report what the rest of the world gets on the front page.

The book opens with the crime that keeps on stealing - the 2000 presidential election. George Bush lost the popular election by 500,000 votes, but won the electoral vote by winning hotly contested Florida, the state that tipped the scales, and the state where his brother Jeb is governor. His tiny 500-vote win there was accompanied by a torrent of hanging chads and unhappy voters, who claimed their votes were stolen. Last week Palast came to Boston to promote the new edition of The Best Democracy… I asked him exactly what he uncovered.

What really happened in Florida?

Five months before the election, Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris ordered the removal of 57,700 names from Florida's voter rolls on grounds that they were felons. Voter rolls contain the names of all eligible, registered voters. If you're not on the list, you don't get to vote.

If you commit a felony in Florida, you lose your right to vote there, and you?'re "scrubbed" from the rolls. You become a non-citizen, like in the old Soviet Union. This is not the case in most other states; it's an uncivilized vestige of the Deep South.

My office carefully went through the scrub list and discovered that at minimum, 90.2 percent of the people were completely innocent of any crime - except for being African American. We didn't have to guess about that, because next to each voter's name was their race.

When I questioned Harris' office about the high percentage of African Americans on the scrub list, they responded, "Well, you know how many black people commit crimes."

But these people weren't felons, so why were they scrubbed?

The Florida Republicans wanted to block African Americans, who largely vote as Democrats, from voting. In 1999 they fired the company they were paying $5,700 to compile their felony "scrub" lists and replaced them with Database Technologies [DBT], who they paid $2.3 million to do the same job. [DBT is the Florida division of Choicepoint, a massive database company that does extensive work for the FBI.]

There are a lot of Joe Smiths in the Florida phonebook. DBT was hired to verify which Joe Smith was a felon and which was not. They were supposed to use their extensive databases to check credit cards, bank information, addresses and phone numbers, in addition to names, ages, and social security numbers. But they didn't. They didn't use one of their 1,200 databases to verify personal information, nor did they make a single phone call to verify the identity of scrubbed names.

So where did DBT get their data?

From the Internet. They went to 11 other states' Internet sites and took names off dirt-cheap. They scrubbed Florida voters whose names were similar to out-of-state felons. An Illinois felon named John Michaels could knock off Florida voter John, Johnny, Jonathan or Jon R. Michaels, or even J.R. Michaelson. DBT matched for race and gender, but names only had to be similar to a certain degree. Names could be reversed, and suffixes (Jr., Sr.) were ignored, but aliases were included. So the felon John "Buddy" Michaels could knock non-felon Michael Johns or Bud Johnson Jr. off the voter rolls. This happened again and again.

Although DBT didn't get names, birthdays or social security numbers right, they were very careful to match for race. A black felon named Mr. Green would only knock off a black Mr. Green, but not a single white Mr. Green. That's how DBT earned its $2.3 million.

Why didn't DBT use their own databases?

They didn't, because the state told them not to. Choicepoint vice-president James Lee was grilled by a Congressional committee, headed by Cynthia McKinney, and he admitted everything, but said DBT was following state directives. Florida state officials told DBT to knock off voters by incorrectly matching them with felons.

Congresswoman McKinney led this commission to her own peril. Choicepoint is in her Atlanta district. She was destroyed in the last election by fabricated quotes and a vicious propaganda campaign.

Is this the only way votes were stolen?

No. There were 8,000 Floridians who had committed misdemeanors, but were counted as felons. Their votes were scrubbed. Katherine Harris' office illegally scrubbed people who'd served time in other states, then moved to Florida, and Jeb Bush's office illegally barred these people from registering to vote at all.

The biggest wholesale theft occurred inside the voting booths in black rural counties. In Gadsden County, one of the blackest in the state, thousands of votes were simply thrown away. Gadsden used paper ballots which are read by an optical reader. Ballots with a single extra mark were considered "spoiled" and not counted. The buttons used to fill out the ballots were set up - with approval from Bush and Harris - to make votes appear unclear to the machine. One in eight ballots in Gadsden was voided by the state.

The same ballots were used in Tallahassee County, which is mostly white. There only one in 100 votes was "spoiled." What made the difference? In Tallahassee, ballots were read on the premises, and if they were marked incorrectly, voters were sent to revote until they got it right. In the black counties, the votes were trucked off immediately. There were no machines on site. Voters weren't told that their votes were spoiled, and they certainly weren't permitted to re-vote.

When Ted Koppel investigated voter theft in Florida, he concluded that blacks lost votes because they weren't well educated, and made mistakes that whites hadn?'t. He didn't even bother to ask how the machines were set up. This is the kind of reporting we get in America. In Britain, this story ran 3 weeks after the election, when Gore was still in race. It was in the papers and on TV. In the US, it was seven months before the Washington Post ran it, and then it was only a partial version. After the election, Gadsden County replaced its voting commissioner. In 2002 they only lost one in 500 votes. So you can say blacks in Gadsden got smarter in one way - they elected a black elections chief.

What happened to Choicepoint?

Bush is handing them the big contracts in the War on Terror; immigration reviews, DNA cataloging, airport profiling, and their voting systems are being rolled out across the country.

It wasn't reported in mainstream press, but the NAACP sued Harris and the gang for the black purge, and won. The state threw up its hands immediately and said, ?'You got us! We'll put these people back as soon as we can.' We're still waiting.


Try some more facts next time Sofia, instead of accusing African Americans of being rascist against themselves, which is the most absurd bullshite I've ever heard.
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