1
   

Far-left liars endanger us all

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 03:30 pm
Quote:
Every time I hear some extremist rant about presidential "lies," I get furious


There were very sound reasons for invading Iraq McG, they just weren't the reasons given.

Is that telling lies? I thing on the whole yes. But surely we dont expect better of our leaders?

Blair and Bush knew exactly what it was all about. So did all the insiders. But its left to the outside world to work it all out. An awful lot haven't got a clue as yet.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 03:42 pm
Karzak wrote:
Buy your own dictionary.


Most unbrave of you.

Would genital stimulation with a feather be perverse? Oral sex? Hanging from the chandelier heterosexual whoopie? Red velvet sheets? I gather you presume anal intercouse between men to be perverted. Would it be so within a heterosexual union, between, say, John Ashcroft and his wife?
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 03:45 pm
I have a feeling that the suggestion to buy your own dictionary indicates a hesitation to loan you one, blatham.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 03:47 pm
Baldimo wrote:
I don't know how many times this has to be said, marriage has always been between a man and a woman. What would change is the definition of marriage.


That is horseapples Baldimo. The reason for the Defense of Marriage Act was to provide a definition where one did not previously exist.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 03:50 pm
Loving v. Virginia
Baldimo wrote:
I don't know how many times this has to be said, marriage has always been between a man and a woman. What would change is the definition of marriage. Why do people what to rewrite something to fit a political agenda? If it has to do with love then unions would work just fine. I think it should be left up to the American people to decide. Let the people vote and decide. Aren’t you liberals that are always saying that every vote should count? Or does that only apply when you think you will win?.


Baldimo: In the past, marriage was between a man and a woman of the same race. That is what the majority of the people wanted and they enacted laws to prevent people of different races from marrying each other. The Supreme Law of the Land is not based on "majority rule." The Constitution secures individual rights against the whims of the mob. Requiring compliance with the Supreme Law of the Land is not a "political agenda."

See Loving v. Virginia:

Virginia's statutory scheme to prevent marriages between persons solely on the basis of racial classifications was held by the United States Supreme Court to violate the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Similarly, state laws that prevent marriages between persons solely on the basis of gender or sexual orientation are also in violation of the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment.

The majority cannot vote to violate the Supreme Law of the Land. All "liberals" and "conservatives" and all other persons in the entire land must abide by the Constitution--whether they want to or not. Unfortunately, you, Foxfyre, and others do not understand the fundamental concepts of a constitutional republic. Foxfyre and others want the oppressed to agree to a "compromise" that violates the Constitution and relegates homosexuals to the status of "second-class" citizens through a separate but equal "civil union" rather than a "marriage."

As I pointed out in another post, the United States Supreme Court has already ruled that "separate but equal" laws are discriminatory violations of the Constitution. (Brown v. Board of Education).
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 04:10 pm
cavfancier wrote:
I have a feeling that the suggestion to buy your own dictionary indicates a hesitation to loan you one, blatham.


prolly doesn't own one...
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 04:12 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
cavfancier wrote:
I have a feeling that the suggestion to buy your own dictionary indicates a hesitation to loan you one, blatham.


prolly doesn't own one...


My take on it was that he owns several, but won't give 'em up. His reasons are his own, of course. :wink:
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 04:13 pm
[quote="McGentrix"Yes, us "righties" want nothing less than world domination by and for white males only. Rolling Eyes[/quote]

and this is supposed to be news?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 04:32 pm
Dictionaries I own in great number. One or two of them, I'm sure, weren't stolen.

Re improper sexuality...elsewhere some time ago I mentioned a wonderful passage from Michener's book "Hawaii". A Calvinist missionary dedicated to ensuring that the backward and randy natives achieved proper Christian virtue in sex behavior (with which, as it happens, his wife seemed oddly disappointed) had posted a list of all the couplings which they shouldn't be engaging in (husband with first cousin's aunt, etc). A sympathetic, but clear-sighted native advised the missionary that posting such a list wouldn't be prudent as everyone would just check it for sex partners they hadn't previously thought of.

The history of Christian notions about sexuality is a very rich and interesting study. As an academic exercise, I mean. The history of the lives that have been absolutely ruined by this tradition is an entirely different matter.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 04:54 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
I don't know how many times this has to be said, marriage has always been between a man and a woman. What would change is the definition of marriage. Why do people what to rewrite something to fit a political agenda? If it has to do with love then unions would work just fine. I think it should be left up to the American people to decide. Let the people vote and decide. Aren't you liberals that are always saying that every vote should count? Or does that only apply when you think you will win?.


Baldimo: In the past, marriage was between a man and a woman of the same race. That is what the majority of the people wanted and they enacted laws to prevent people of different races from marrying each other. The Supreme Law of the Land is not based on "majority rule." The Constitution secures individual rights against the whims of the mob. Requiring compliance with the Supreme Law of the Land is not a "political agenda."

See Loving v. Virginia:

Virginia's statutory scheme to prevent marriages between persons solely on the basis of racial classifications was held by the United States Supreme Court to violate the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Similarly, state laws that prevent marriages between persons solely on the basis of gender or sexual orientation are also in violation of the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment.

The majority cannot vote to violate the Supreme Law of the Land. All "liberals" and "conservatives" and all other persons in the entire land must abide by the Constitution--whether they want to or not. Unfortunately, you, Foxfyre, and others do not understand the fundamental concepts of a constitutional republic. Foxfyre and others want the oppressed to agree to a "compromise" that violates the Constitution and relegates homosexuals to the status of "second-class" citizens through a separate but equal "civil union" rather than a "marriage."

As I pointed out in another post, the United States Supreme Court has already ruled that "separate but equal" laws are discriminatory violations of the Constitution. (Brown v. Board of Education).
I can see your point on the marriage issue between races but I don't see how it applies to people with a life style choice. I myself am married to a black woman and I can see the difference between race and life style choice. People are under the impression that people don't have a choice when it comes to homosexuality, but this hasn't been proven. As far as I'm concerned and how most people are concerned it is a choice and we can't grant things to people because of choice.

You speak of separate but equal and how it is unconstitutional then how come we have things like hate crimes legislation and affirmation actions laws in place. Don't these violate equal protection? If a black person commits a crime against a white person just because they are white doesn't this equal a hate crime? If 2 people are of equal qualifications and one is white the other is black, the black person could be chosen because of their color due to affirmative action. These are not equal but unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 07:46 pm
Choice
Baldimo wrote:
I can see your point on the marriage issue between races but I don't see how it applies to people with a life style choice. I myself am married to a black woman and I can see the difference between race and life style choice. People are under the impression that people don't have a choice when it comes to homosexuality, but this hasn't been proven. As far as I'm concerned and how most people are concerned it is a choice and we can't grant things to people because of choice.


Baldimo:

Marriage is a personal relationship between two persons based on contract wherein the consent of the parties is essential. Every person has the fundamental right to marry the person of his or her choice. Every person has a fundamental right to privacy--to live his or her private life as he or she chooses without unreasonable government interference. The Constitution is the supreme safeguard of individual fundamental rights. The Constitution also guarantees equal protection under the laws to all citizens.

Therefore, when you object to same-sex marriages because you believe homosexuality is a "choice," the proper response is: so what? Whether you are a homosexual or a heterosexual person, you have a fundamental right to marry the person of your choice. You married the person of your choice, didn't you?

If you do not believe me that the right to marry is a fundamental right, simply run a google search. You will find ample authority.

Whenever a state passes a law that is subject to constitutional challenge, there are different levels of review. Courts apply the strict scrutiny test to laws that infringe upon fundamental rights. The law must be absolutely necessary and narrowly tailored to serve a compelling state interest.

What is a state's compelling state interest in defining marriage in such a manner as to infringe upon any person's right to marry the person of his or her choice?

Simply saying, "well, homosexuality is a lifestyle choice" does not identify a state's compelling interest. The government cannot dictate personal and private choices. What compelling interest is the state advancing by denying any person the right to marry the person of his choice?

If we can identify a compelling state interest, then--and only then--can we determine if the prohibition on same sex marriage is absolutely necessary and narrowly tailored to serve that compelling government interest.

So--tell me--what is the compelling government interest involved in this issue? Is it merely to prevent people from enjoying the benefits of their chosen lifestyle? That's not a compelling interest--that's not even a interest that would satisfy the most deferential rational basis test.

If you can't think of a compelling interest that the government might have for prohibiting same-sex marriages---try present a rational basis for prohibiting same-sex marriages that will survive constitutional review.


Baldimo wrote:
You speak of separate but equal and how it is unconstitutional then how come we have things like hate crimes legislation and affirmation actions laws in place. Don't these violate equal protection? If a black person commits a crime against a white person just because they are white doesn't this equal a hate crime? If 2 people are of equal qualifications and one is white the other is black, the black person could be chosen because of their color due to affirmative action. These are not equal but unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment.


Baldimo:

The United States Supreme Court struck down the "separate but equal" doctrine that previously sanctioned discrimination. Separate facilities and programs for the races were rarely equal and always discriminatory. Hence, laws that sanctioned the separation of the races and penalized the intermingling of the races were struck down as unconstitutional.

Given our country's long and substantial history of discrimination on the basis of race, the Fourteenth Amendment allows the enactment of laws (or policies) that remedy or ameliorate the effects of past discrimination. That's why harsher penalties are allowed when a person who engages in criminal behavior selects his victim on the basis of the victim's race. That's why our laws allow affirmative action.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 08:51 pm
Thanks for the lesson in law, now can you answer my question about how the 14th Amendment is allows such things as Hate crimes legislation and affirmative action? You have explained how they use it to make sure everyone is equal but it isn't equal. Hate crime legislation is used for harsher sentences on people who attack gays. If a gay person attacks a straight person does that mean it was a hate crime.

What you are doing is saying that we want everything to be fair but we still want special protection in certain areas, you can't have it both ways. Hate is hate and people are attacked all the time because of hate but it only applies to minorities. Homosexuals want to be treated as equals but they also want to be treated special.

My point in the last post has to do with changing rules to fit a political agenda. If homosexuality is a chosen life style why should things be changed to fit said life style. We have already given unequal protection in the law books because of things like hate crime legislation, so in order to have things truly equal we need to start there.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 09:39 pm
educate yourself
Baldimo wrote:
Thanks for the lesson in law, now can you answer my question about how the 14th Amendment is allows such things as Hate crimes legislation and affirmative action? You have explained how they use it to make sure everyone is equal but it isn't equal. Hate crime legislation is used for harsher sentences on people who attack gays. If a gay person attacks a straight person does that mean it was a hate crime.

What you are doing is saying that we want everything to be fair but we still want special protection in certain areas, you can't have it both ways. Hate is hate and people are attacked all the time because of hate but it only applies to minorities. Homosexuals want to be treated as equals but they also want to be treated special.

My point in the last post has to do with changing rules to fit a political agenda. If homosexuality is a chosen life style why should things be changed to fit said life style. We have already given unequal protection in the law books because of things like hate crime legislation, so in order to have things truly equal we need to start there.


An entire law school education and years of practice might not be enough to properly educate you. I explained but my explanation fell upon deaf ears. If you cannot grasp, it makes little difference how much rope that may be thrown out to you. You can find the answers to your questions in my previous posts. If my answers are insufficient for your powers of comprehension, then--by all means--feel free to educate yourself in a manner more befitting to your capabilities.

For a quick overview on hate crimes, check out the following pages:

http://www.adl.org/99hatecrime/constitutionality.asp

(Excerpt: "Finally, several litigants have argued that state penalty enhancement or bias-motivated crimes statutes violate the equal protection clause of the United States Constitution. These parties have suggested either that the statutes unconstitutionally benefit minorities, because minorities are more likely to be victims of bias crimes, or that the statutes unconstitutionally burden majority members because majority members are more likely to be prosecuted. In each case, the state court has rejected the argument, noting that the statute is neutral on its face and that the state has a legitimate interest in punishing hate crimes more severely. As previously noted, the defendant in Mitchell was Black and his victim was white.")

Wisconsin v. Mitchell, 508 U.S. 476 (1993).
http://laws.findlaw.com/us/508/476.html
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 09:41 pm
The tongue...the only instrument that grows sharper with constant use....I love it....
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 11:50 pm
Affirmative Action
To review an educational discussion concerning affirmative action, see the following web page:

Affirmative Action: A Dialogue on Race, Gender, Equality and Law in America

See also:

Equality/Equal Protection

In President Johnson's famous words: "You do not take a person hobbled with chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and say, 'You are free to compete with all the others,' and still justly believe that you have been completely fair."

See also:

UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA REGENTS v. BAKKE

In this "reverse discrimination" case, the Supreme Court held:

Racial and ethnic classifications of any sort are inherently suspect and call for the most exacting judicial scrutiny. While the goal of achieving a diverse student body is sufficiently compelling to justify consideration of race in admissions decisions under some circumstances, petitioner's special admissions program, which forecloses consideration to persons like respondent, is unnecessary to the achievement of this compelling goal and therefore invalid under the Equal Protection Clause.

See:

GRATZ et al. v. BOLLINGER et al.

Decided June 23, 2003

Excerpts:

Petitioners filed this class action alleging that the University's use of racial preferences in undergraduate admissions violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and 42 U. S. C. §1981.

It is by now well established that "all racial classifications reviewable under the Equal Protection Clause must be strictly scrutinized." Adarand Constructors, Inc. v. Peña, 515 U. S. 200, 224 (1995). This " 'standard of review ... is not dependent on the race of those burdened or benefited by a particular classification.' " Ibid. (quoting Richmond v. J. A. Croson Co., 488 U. S. 469, 494 (1989) (plurality opinion)). Thus, "any person, of whatever race, has the right to demand that any governmental actor subject to the Constitution justify any racial classification subjecting that person to unequal treatment under the strictest of judicial scrutiny." Adarand, 515 U. S., at 224.

To withstand our strict scrutiny analysis, respondents must demonstrate that the University's use of race in its current admission program employs "narrowly tailored measures that further compelling governmental interests." Id., at 227. Because "[r]acial classifications are simply too pernicious to permit any but the most exact connection between justification and classification," Fullilove v. Klutznick, 448 U. S. 448, 537 (1980) (Stevens, J., dissenting), our review of whether such requirements have been met must entail " 'a most searching examination.' " Adarand, supra, at 223 (quoting Wygant v. Jackson Bd. of Ed., 476 U. S. 267, 273 (1986) (plurality opinion of Powell, J.)). We find that the University's policy, which automatically distributes 20 points, or one-fifth of the points needed to guarantee admission, to every single "underrepresented minority" applicant solely because of race, is not narrowly tailored to achieve the interest in educational diversity that respondents claim justifies their program.

Justice Powell's opinion in Bakke emphasized the importance of considering each particular applicant as an individual, assessing all of the qualities that individual possesses, and in turn, evaluating that individual's ability to contribute to the unique setting of higher education . . . The current LSA policy does not provide such individualized consideration.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 02:37 am
Re: Affirmative Action
Debra_Law wrote:


In President Johnson's famous words: "You do not take a person hobbled with chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and say, 'You are free to compete with all the others,' and still justly believe that you have been completely fair."


Basically, racism was legally dead and buried in this country in 1965, and that was too good for the democrat party; dems had to reinvent it.

I mean, if AA wasn't such an atrocious idea on the face of it, you might could have made a case for it in the single case of the black man who you might claim was dragged here in chains, had a major hand in building the country early on, and was thereafter denied a share of the proceeds. Nonetheless, talented blacks have never needed it and worse, AA from day one has been interpreted as being for blacks, women, asians, fiji islanders, mexicans, rich people from Taiwan, eskimos, dogs, cats, and basically everything and everybody in this world other than the white male, who was essentially declared to be a criminal due to circumstances of birth.

The best book on the subject is probably still Danesh D'Sousa's "Illiberal Education". The story of the Chinese-American kid Yang Pat Au and the quota system at Cal Berkeley sticks in my mind as a sort of an ultimate example of how badly an entire system can be messed up by one perverted policy.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 02:48 am
Re: Affirmative Action
swolf wrote:
Basically, racism was legally dead and buried in this country in 1965, and that was too good for the democrat party; dems had to reinvent it.


If you say so, it must be true. But what about the effects of past discrimination? Your partisanship aside, were the effects dead and buried too? If not, what are the proper means to remedy and ameliorate the effects of past discrimination?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 04:33 am
McGentrix wrote:
Yes, us "righties" want nothing less than world domination by and for white males only.


It is at least refreshing to have you admit the truth from time to time.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 04:47 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Okay, I'll just put you down as one who is unwilling to compromise and achieve a win-win solution Setanta.


Stupid, stupid, stupid . . . this is of course predicated upon your willful ignorance of the legal difference between marriage and civil union. You have a wonderful capacity to act as though something which you do not wish to answer has never been written. I have already acknowledged to McG that if civil union and marriage were legally equivalent, the word would mean nothing. However, they are not equivalent, and therefore the word means everything. Your "compromise" does not envision you doing anything other than agreeing to tolerate those whom you have no legal right not to tolerate. Unless and until you first change every statute, every law which offers special consideration to those who are married so that such laws apply equally to civil union, then nothing satisfies equity until homosexuals are allowed to marry. You offer no compromise--you offer an unyeilding opposition to the extension of equity.

Quote:
I see you as wanting special rights for gays instead of including all people who might need the same benefits you (and I) wish for gays to have. I just include everybody in my wish, not just homosexual people. Which of us is the more even handed here do you think?


This is not just a specious statement, i suspect it is a willful lie. To insist that homosexual have access to equal treatment before the law is not a demand for special rights it is a demand for equal rights. As long as you have your special interest hangup about the word marriage, then you have nothing to offer anyone. You have no reason to assume that i am opposed to any other description of couple making such contractual arrangements, and you have nothing to point to in this debate to support this insulting and manufactured claim about your "even handed" approach.

Quote:
Never mind answering that.


Yes, when you post lies and made-up contentions about what someone has written, i'm sure you would rather that they do not respond.

Quote:
I'll butt out of the discussion now as I've found it is pretty futile with those who cannot or will not look for win-win solutions to anything .


You offer no "win-win" solution. You simply insist on continuing to exlude homosexuals from equal treatment before the law, on the basis of your desire to personally define a single word so as to exclude them that equal treatment.

Quote:
I am having much more success in real life discussions. It is gratifying to know that many people, both gay and straight, are willing to be reasonable.


I rather think that in the case of anyone homosexual is who sufficiently unfortunate as to be obliged to discuss this with you, they are simply to polite to point out your demand for special rights which exclude them. There is nothing unreasonable in my position. There is everything unreasonable in your insistence on a single word, when that insistence assures that homosexuals will not have the same rights as you as long as they are denied that word--MARRIAGE.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 04:47 am
What the hell is it with conservatives and their fondness for the word 'perverted'?
0 Replies
 
 

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