No it isn't unless 'you people' (sorry about that) continue it on without me. I believe I've made my case and, unless there is more to put up there than hearsay quotes, I don't see any point in continuing. The ABBers are going to think what they will about GWB, his faith and everything else. The 'my mind is made up and don't confuse me with facts' mentality simply cannot be overcome with any amount of logic or proof.
Anyhow, I had no problems with Clinton's faith and I have no problems with Bush's faith. To me it is completely unrealistic and just plain wrong to expect a President or anybody else to just close down part of what they are because some people have a problem with religion.
It's not Bush's faith that is being questioned. It is his use of it to determine policy.
Cycloptichorn
cyclo
That is the issue, but fox maybe doesn't want it to be.
An active Christian will always pray for God's guidance. When they feel they have allowed themselves to be guided by God, they may characterize it as 'following God's will'.
Many Christians also feel that there are no accidents in the direction of their lives, and thus feel that God has preordained where they are in life.
PLENTY of Presidents have alluded to these beliefs, including George Bush.
On another thread--one of Setanta's--can't remember the title--he questions whether or not the US was founded on Christian principles. I brought a couple of detailed articles, referencing biographies and diaries of George Washington, where it quite clear he spoke of God as Bush does, and felt the firm hand of God as he shaped this nation's Presidency. His inaugural speech was ALL ABOUT GOD.
Why some continue to act as though Bush is the sole President, allowing his relationship to God to color his choices, is just deliberate ignorance of the facts.
I would guess fewer Presidents HAVE NOT cited God, than have.
Foxfyre wrote:I don't know that Bush said the quotes you put up Mesquite.....if he did I would have to see the context, tone, who he was talking to etc. What people who want him to look bad say he said just doesn't cut it with me. That's why I have asked for direct quotes in context......those I will look at.
Now that is really an amazing statement given that I gave the source of the quotes, mentioned that they are on video as well as transcript .
see this post.
I also described the program and invited you to view it.
see this post
Once again the show was a PBS Frontline Special
The Jesus Factor. You can still view it online. The online version is broken into four segments of about 15 min each. You can purchase it on CD or tape. You can read the
transcript. or the in depth
interviews.
You can see comments from viewers
here
where even hardline supporters such as this thought it was fair and balanced.
Quote:I was a bit hesitant to watch "The Jesus Factor". However after watching it I felt an even deeper respect for our President and the beliefs he has unashamedly stated.
I found it entertaining to think that people are so concerned that he has beliefs that are centuries old, yet think nothing of things like gay marriage that will affect our children and families another generation down the road. It is frustrating to even ponder trying to explain to my children why two men or two women can get married. It's odd. Yet for the president to point out the obvious, that marriage is one man and one woman...duh! We have come to a point in our society that we have to define the obvious.
I guess I just appreciate a guy that has the guts to say to the world things that most of us are thinking.
Thanks for a well balanced story, I feel like you did a good job in this program.
Sophia, I still think this George is different.
Quote:REPRODUCED FROM THE HOLDINGS OF THE TEXAS STATE ARCHIVES
OFFICIAL MEMORANDUM
STATE OF TEXAS
OFFICE OF THE GOVERNOR
Throughout the world, people of all religions recognize Jesus Christ as an example of love, compassion, sacrifice and service. Reaching out to the poor, the suffering and the marginalized, he provided moral leadership that continues to inspire countless men, women, and children today.
To honor his life and teachings, Christians of all races and denominations have joined together to designate June 10 as Jesus Day. As part of this celebration of unity, they are taking part in the 10th annual March for Jesus in cities throughout the Lone Star State. The march, which began in Austin in 1991, is now held in nearly 180 countries. Jesus Day challenges people to follow Christ's example by performing good works in their communities and neighborhoods. By nursing the sick, feeding the poor or volunteering in homeless shelters, everyone can play a role in making the world a better place.
I urge all Texans to answer the call to serve those in need. By volunteering their time, energy or resources to helping others, adults and youngsters follow Christ's message of love and service in thought and deed.
Therefore I, George W. Bush, Governor of Texas, do hereby proclaim June 10, 2000,
Jesus Day
in Texas and urge the appropriate recognition whereof.
In official recognition whereof, I hereby affix my signature this 17th day of March, 2000
George W. Bush [signature]
Governor of Texas
One last comment Mesquite. I'm sure you as an athiest are utterly alarmed at what Bush says. you also cannot show me any piece of legislation, policy, or public policy statement of his that is the least tainted by the Bible you so hold in contempt.
Now if you are unable to show how Bush's 'off the cuff' and/or public policy statements are in any way different that those of Bill Clinton, George the first, Ronald Reagan, or Jimmy Carter, I suggest you let it drop. I gave you some pretty good Clinton quotes to start with. I have lots more but the ones I posted are illustrative of his comments on religion. You so far have completely ignored them. It's time for you to be more fair and balanced. You are not going to convince me that George Bush is a religious nut. I know what a religious nut is. He isn't one.
Foxfyre , and once again you refuse to even acknowledge the Frontline program. I have not at any time called George W. Bush a religious nut. He is just a nut that happens to be religious.
I am actually quite familiar with the Frontline piece Mesquite and thought I had mentioned it. Maybe I hadn't and if so I apologize. I do not find it in any way alarming or unusual or any different than any they did on Bill Clinton years ago. But so long as you think Clinton's stance on religion and his use of religion to his own advantage was just fine and dandy (which I did) but that George Bush is improper and/or dangerous because he even brings it up, that says much more about your own prejudices about Bush than it does about religion.
Foxfyre wrote:I am actually quite familiar with the Frontline piece Mesquite and thought I had mentioned it. Maybe I hadn't and if so I apologize. I do not find it in any way alarming or unusual or any different than any they did on Bill Clinton years ago. But so long as you think Clinton's stance on religion and his use of religion to his own advantage was just fine and dandy (which I did) but that George Bush is improper and/or dangerous because he even brings it up, that says much more about your own prejudices about Bush than it does about religion.
Oy! Not because he brings it up, because he acts on it! UNILATERALLY!
Quote:Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: I asked Congress to join me and pass what I called the faith-based initiative, which would help change the culture of Washington and the behavior of bureaucracies. They've stalled. So I just signed an executive order.
Quote:"Across America, schools and faith-based organizations are telling us they want to build new and effective partnerships, like the large number of faith-based groups involved in America Reads or the Shiloh Baptist-Seaton Elementary School partnership, which offers after-school activities here in Washington, DC. Faith-based organizations in schools, though different in many ways, do often share important goals: expanding opportunities to learn, lifting children's lives. Our new guidelines will help them work together on common ground to meet constitutional muster, to avoid making students uncomfortable because they come from different religious traditions, while helping students make the most of their God-given talents. These guidelines also tell us that a consensus is emerging among educators and religious leaders and among defenders of the first amendment. So many of them have endorsed our efforts. Their voices echo the words of George Washington who said that Americans have, and I quote, 'abundant reason to rejoice, that in this land every person may worship God according to the dictates of his own heart.'
"Today, as we count the days down to the end of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st, we know that this fundamental and precious liberty is still strong. We are determined that it will remain so, not just for our own children but for generations yet to come." -- President Clinton's Radio Address, 18 December 1999
The difference between that statement and Bush saying the Bible was a better guideline for childcare center is very obvious to me.
Okay Mesquite. I'm dropping out of this because its really boring saying the same things over and over. You're convinced you're right. I'm convinced I'm right. And we'll both vote accordingly in November.
Foxfyre, can't blame you for folding considering the hand you are holding.
When voting time comes around, I also have the better hand. I am in a red state with 8 votes that has had it's share of problems with republicans. We impeached two governors, one along the lines of Bush, and another that was a high class crook. Then we had the Rep. speakers alternative fuel vehicle bill that nearly bankrupted the state treasury to buy big SUVs for doctors and lawyers.
Now you live in a blue state with 5 votes....edit: (insert tongue firmly in cheek icon here)
Sofia wrote:An active Christian will always pray for God's guidance. When they feel they have allowed themselves to be guided by God, they may characterize it as 'following God's will'.
The Bible God has many personalities. When speaking of God's will is associated with actions such as helping the needy as in the teachings of Jesus, I have no problem with it.
When it is associated with actions and rhetoric such as ridding the world of evil, amending the constitution to define marriage, invading other countries , then it begins to look more like the will of the psychopath of the old testament, and I do get very concerned.
Sofia wrote:Many Christians also feel that there are no accidents in the direction of their lives, and thus feel that God has preordained where they are in life.
If we have a leader that truly believes God is pulling his strings, then we are in trouble.
Sofia wrote:PLENTY of Presidents have alluded to these beliefs, including George Bush.
Preordainment? Which presidents please?
Sofia wrote:On another thread--one of Setanta's--can't remember the title--he questions whether or not the US was founded on Christian principles. I brought a couple of detailed articles, referencing biographies and diaries of George Washington, where it quite clear he spoke of God as Bush does, and felt the firm hand of God as he shaped this nation's Presidency. His inaugural speech was ALL ABOUT GOD.
Why do you assume Christianity when Washington never mentioned Jesus in his writings or speeches? He mentioned God a lot, but in generic terms, so much so that some think he was a Diest.
Sofia wrote:Why some continue to act as though Bush is the sole President, allowing his relationship to God to color his choices, is just deliberate ignorance of the facts.
I would guess fewer Presidents HAVE NOT cited God, than have.
As has been stated many times in this thread, citing God is not the concern, it is the mixing of politics, church and state.
mesquite--
In Washington's diaries, he mentions Jesus as God's Son. Reading the excerpts leaves no doubt as to his religion, and his belief that God is actively guiding him.
As to your preordainment question, I'll bring some quotes I think match Bush's from other Presidents. I wouldn't expect you to just take my word for it.
An excerpt from Setanta's thread, THE AMERICAN RELIGIOUS MYTH.
-----------
This was Washington's Inaugural Address. Call It God, the Invisible Hand, or what you will. His incredible focus on a Supreme Being is ALL OVER THIS TEXT of the first President of this country.
---------
Washington's First Inaugural Address
At his first inauguration, George Washington took the oath of office for the presidency on April 30, 1789.
(...)
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, ***my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations and whose providential aide can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes; and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success, the functions allotted to **his charge. ***
In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor those of my fellow-citizens at large, less than either. ***No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. ***
Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency; and in the important revolution just accomplished in the system of their United government, the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities, from which the event has resulted can not be compared with the means by which most governments have been established, ***without some return of pious gratitude, along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which them past seem to presage. ***
These reflections, arising out of the present crisis, have forced themselves too strongly on my mind to be suppressed. ***You will join with me I trust in thinking, that there are none under the influence of which the proceedings of a new and free Government can more auspiciously commence.***
We ought to be no less persuaded that the ***propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained***; and since the preservation of sacred fire of liberty and the destiny of the republican model of government are justly considered as deeply, perhaps finally, staked of the experiment...
I shall take my present leave; but not without resorting once more to the ***Benign Parent of the Human Race, in humble supplication that, since ***He has been pleased to favor the American people with opportunities for deliberating in perfect tranquility, and dispositions for deciding with unparalleled unanimity on a form of government for the security of their union and the advancement of their happiness, so His divine blessings may be equally conspicuous in the enlarged views, the temperate consultations and the wise measures on which the success of this Government must depend." ***
---
Good grief. I began with citing the references to God, and THE WHOLE THING WAS A REFERENCE TO GOD.
___
Because Washington found terms other than the usual "God with a capital G", in The American Religious Myth, I brought excerpts from Washington's personal prayer diaries, in which he speaks of God and his allegiance to Jesus Christ.
So, it is apparent that the founding President relied heavily and completely on God for his direction, and the direction of the country.
I haven't yet looked for other Presidents, but I am sure I'll find quotes in the same vein. Still trying to get this one accepted...
Sofia
Was Washington refering to God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, The jewish God, or the hindu God. To which one of the hundred or so Gods was washington refering and what does it have to do with this site.
Sofia wrote:This was Washington's Inaugural Address. Call It God, the Invisible Hand, or what you will. His incredible focus on a Supreme Being is ALL OVER THIS TEXT of the first President of this country.
As I said earlier,
"He mentioned God a lot, but in generic terms, so much so that some think he was a deist."
I posted some very specific quotes of Bush backed up by video recordings. I posted quotes that demonstrate Bush's mingling of church and state, such as:
Quote:Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: We need commonsense judges who understand that our rights were derived from God. And those are the kind of judges I intend to put on the bench.
NARRATOR: In the last year, in recess appointments, Bush has pushed through two federal judges, Charles Pickering and William Pryor, both outspoken religious conservatives.
Quote:Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: I asked Congress to join me and pass what I called the faith-based initiative, which would help change the culture of Washington and the behavior of bureaucracies. They've stalled. So I just signed an executive order.
Quote:Pres. GEORGE W. BUSH: The handbook of this particular child care is a universal handbook. It's been around for a long time. It doesn't need to be invented. It's a-- let me see your handbook there. This handbook is a good book. It's a good go-by.
Rev. C. WELTON GADDY: The Bible, guidebook for public policy? Now, President Bush is the chief executive officer of this nation, pledged to defend the Constitution. He was speaking as a religious leader, not worried about the constitutional implications of that rhetoric.
Source: Frontline The Jesus Factor
If you have some quotes from other presidents with that amount of specificity towards ignoring the separation of church and state, and especially if backed up by video, I would find it very surprising.
rabel22, You can blame the hijacking of the title of this thread on Foxfyre. :wink:
Quote:ST. LOUIS, Aug. 8 - Susanne Jacobsmeyer, a member of the West County Assembly of God in a St. Louis suburb, voted for George W. Bush four years ago, but mostly out of loyalty as a Republican and not with much passion.
This year, Ms. Jacobsmeyer is a "team leader" in the Bush campaign's effort to turn out conservative Christian voters. "This year I am voting for him as a man of faith," she said over breakfast after an early morning service. "He has proven that he will do what is right, and he will look to God first."
Jan Klarich, her friend and another team leader, agreed. "Don't you feel it is a spiritual battle?" she asked to nods around the table.
The Bush campaign is seeking to rally conservative churches and their members across the country to help turn out sympathetic voters this fall, and West County Assembly of God, an evangelical congregation in a Republican district of a pivotal swing state, is on the front lines of the effort.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/09/politics/campaign/09church.html?hp
Note please the direct contradiction with all these goings on and what Lincoln had to say in the earlier quotations. We'll acknowledge that these words didn't come out of Bush's mouth, but we'll also note that it is Bush's campaign which is happily encouraging it all.
