I don't know that Bush said the quotes you put up Mesquite.....if he did I would have to see the context, tone, who he was talking to etc. What people who want him to look bad say he said just doesn't cut it with me. That's why I have asked for direct quotes in context......those I will look at.
I have a quick question for everyone? I am trying to understand why so many find upsetting that Bush has said that he thinks God wants him to be president. I would be more concerned if Bush had said that he believed God wanted him to be president of a baseball team and he misunderstood and ran for president of the US in error. Or that God wanted him to be an actor but since he knows better than God he ran for president.
I would not want to speak for all Christians, but I think the majority would say that God had led them to do what they are doing. As non-Christians you may not understand or believe this, but that does not mean it is not so.
So what really is the big deal? He believes God wanted him to be President. Where exactly is the harm in that statement as pulled out of context as everyone is doing here?
I couldn't agree more. At least President Bush doesn't compromise his beliefs and flip-flop as does Kerry, who says he believes, as a good Catholic, that life begins at conception but supports abortion.
Also, many of us, I think, oftentimes use phrases in everyday language such as "Thank God I ..." or "there, but for the grace of God, go I"...
The "ABB" crowd don't really get upset or concerned over Mr. Bush's religious remarks, but are grasping and using it as a negative because they have so little else to work with.
The majority of Americans see this man as a good and decent individual who is not afraid to make his faith a part of his everyday life. At least he's honest, which is more than I can say about Kerry.
JustWonders said
Quote:The "ABB" crowd don't really get upset or concerned over Mr. Bush's religious remarks, but are grasping and using it as a negative because they have so little else to work with.
On the contrary I get very upset every time Bush slaps me in the face with his religion. And enraged when he continually attacks the constitution regarding separation of church and state with his religious agenda.
As for having so little to work with. His administration has been a series of blunders, secrecy and falsehoods. Nothing to work with indeed. If only that was true we would not be in the quagmire of Iraq today. Putting our youth into harms way and bankrupting our treasury.
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=18188 [source for the quote below]
Quote:In the midst of more than five hours of interviews Frontline did with Land were five sentences out of which the program's producers decided to pull two for a particular segment: "The day he was inaugurated for his second term as governor in 1999, there were several of us who met with him at the governor's mansion. Among the things he said to us was: 'I believe that God wants me to be president.'"
That single line garnered considerable press coverage before the Frontline program aired. PBS had issued a news release and, apparently, some major media outlets were allowed an advance screening of the show.
The problem is that the statement was not all of what Land said about the comments by Bush. By editing his statement the way they did, Land said PBS "distorted the meaning and the whole ethos behind the quote."
"What the president said was, 'I believe that God wants me to be president, but if that doesn't happen, that's OK. I am loved at home, and that's more important," Land explained on National Public Radio's "Fresh Air" program April 29. He noted transcripts of his interviews with Frontline producers were available on the Internet at
www.pbs.org.
M. did give a source where some of the quotes were taken. It was from frontline on PBS with an interview from Dr. Land. There are transcripts from there that you can search to get the whole interview. Land apparently is a close associate of George Bush long before he was elected President and was not trying to prove anything with repeating the remaks that George Bush made, but was somehow approving of those remaks that George Bush made.
I think the dinstinction with what Land said and what frontline reported is a dinstinction without a difference. Land still said that George Bush said " I believe God wants me to be president." Frontline just didn't add the other part that Land said that makes george a little humble and God a little inept. If God wants George Bush to be president and George believed it then there should have been no "if that doesn't happen" added onto it.
The problem with telling people and maybe even believing it youself that God wants you to be president of United States is that it puts that person in the position to where people believe that anything they say and want is right because God is on his side; putting George Bush in line with those like David in the Bible or something. In so doing it automatically puts those against what George Bush wants to be non christians or atheist or against God.
The way I see it George Bush is either a religious nut or a con artist fooling the religious right of the United States.
Kerry's vote on October 11, 2002 speaks for itself, I think. There were other senators besides him that had the same information and voted against the war in Iraq.
When President Bush actually launched the invasion soon afterwards, Senator Kerry praised him, co-sponsoring a Senate resolution in which he declared that the invasion was "lawful and fully authorized by the Congress" and that he "commends and supports the efforts and leadership of the President . . . in the conflict with Iraq."
Seems to me he had no problem "sending our youth into harms way", but is now backtracking (also known as flip-flopping LOL).
Careful what you wish for all you ABBers. You just might get it.
JustWonders wrote:Kerry's vote on October 11, 2002 speaks for itself, I think. There were other senators besides him that had the same information and voted against the war in Iraq.
When President Bush actually launched the invasion soon afterwards, Senator Kerry praised him, co-sponsoring a Senate resolution in which he declared that the invasion was "lawful and fully authorized by the Congress" and that he "commends and supports the efforts and leadership of the President . . . in the conflict with Iraq."
Seems to me he had no problem "sending our youth into harms way", but is now backtracking (also known as flip-flopping LOL).
Careful what you wish for all you ABBers. You just might get it.
Kerry's second vote was a protest vote because Bush didn't go about the Iraq thing the way he said he was going to. Kerry knew full well that the vote was going to pass. In the end, the troops saw little of that money and still had to get their armor from other sources other than George Bush their commander in chief.
Well I feel sorry for anyone who is 'enraged' when the President speaks of his faith. I think that is a really sad commentary on our times. There are so many other things to be enraged by than a simple statement, if quoted accurately, in an interview, not a policy statement. But the ABB people are not apt to be reasonable or even handed when it comes to dislike or hate for the president or apparently for Christians who do not mind that their president includes God in his life and work.
I'm just grateful that this is not a universally shared sentiment.
How are Bush's statements any different from this?
Quote:
"I don't think I could do my job as President," Clinton said, "much less continue to try to grow as a person in the absence of my faith in God and my attempt to learn more about what it should be and grow. It provides a solace and support in the face of all these problems that I am not smart enough to solve."
(ABC Interview by Peggy Wehmeyer, "American Agenda", March 22, 1994.)
Quote:And so, my fellow Americans, at the edge of the 21st century, let us begin with energy and hope, with faith and discipline, and let us work until our work is done. The scripture says, "And let us not be weary in well-doing, for in due season, we shall reap, if we faint not." 41 From this joyful mountaintop of celebration, we hear a call to service in the valley. We have heard the trumpets. We have changed the guard. And now, each in our way, and with God's help, we must answer the call. 42 Thank you and God bless you all. (Bill Clinton's First Inaugeral Address Jan 21, 1993)
Quote:"Sometimes I think the environment in which we operate is entirely too secular. The fact that we have freedom of religion doesn't mean we need to try to have freedom from religion. It doesn't mean that those of us who have faith shouldn't frankly admit that we are animated by the faith, that we try to live by it, and that it does affect what we feel, what we think, and what we do.
Bill Clinton at a White House Prayer Breakfast August 30, 1993
Quote:"Across America, schools and faith-based organizations are telling us they want to build new and effective partnerships, like the large number of faith-based groups involved in America Reads or the Shiloh Baptist-Seaton Elementary School partnership, which offers after-school activities here in Washington, DC. Faith-based organizations in schools, though different in many ways, do often share important goals: expanding opportunities to learn, lifting children's lives. Our new guidelines will help them work together on common ground to meet constitutional muster, to avoid making students uncomfortable because they come from different religious traditions, while helping students make the most of their God-given talents. These guidelines also tell us that a consensus is emerging among educators and religious leaders and among defenders of the first amendment. So many of them have endorsed our efforts. Their voices echo the words of George Washington who said that Americans have, and I quote, 'abundant reason to rejoice, that in this land every person may worship God according to the dictates of his own heart.'
"Today, as we count the days down to the end of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st, we know that this fundamental and precious liberty is still strong. We are determined that it will remain so, not just for our own children but for generations yet to come." -- President Clinton's Radio Address, 18 December 1999
Did these enrage you people like Bush's statements do?
Yup. Clinton scheduled them and attended them quite frequently.
Foxy
If you are going to quote I suggest you do so accurately. Or am i asking the impossible
Fox said
Quote:Well I feel sorry for anyone who is 'enraged' when the President speaks of his faith.
AU said
On the contrary I get very upset every time Bush slaps me in the face with his religion.
And enraged when he continually attacks the constitution regarding separation of church and state with his religious agenda.
I would make the point that Bush was not elected Pope or Ayatollah but president of a diverse and secular nation. He should remember that.
Including the ABBers in my prayers
So I'll ask you Au, how does Bush blur the lines between Church and State any more than Clinton does in the quotes I posted?
I think I can explain this difference in liking / not liking Bush concerning his religious beliefs.
As a Christian, Foxfyre, you probably know and understand that ones relationship with God is personal. You probably would also agree that ones faith is to be lived, not broadcasted. The problem I, as a Christian, have with Bush is that it is spoken of and touted in speeches with no living of the faith to back it up. Actions DO speak louder than words, and the contradictions between the two make Christians such as myself very bothered by the rhetoric.
For example, I could be president (don't laugh, I really could!) and hold prayer meetings in the Whitehouse every morning to strengthen my faith and that of my administration. But, I couldn't then walk into the Oval Office and declare war against a country that did not attack us, and I especially couldn't do so if there was conflicting information regarding their ability to do so. So, my faith would be public given that the prayer meetings would obviously be written about in the news, AND my actions would show the thoughtfulness and prayerful contemplation required of my faith.
One can look at the life Bush led prior to his presidency and see the contradictions which should make any Christian question his sincerity. Since he was not baptised in the faith until age 40, we will ignore the DWI's, cocaine use, etc. But, as Govenor of Texas after his baptism he MOCKED a woman being sent to the electric chair. That is horrific to me. Where's the compassion? I speak here only of his reaction to her plea, not whether or not she deserved to die or whether or not the death penalty should or should not exist. Think only of his response. Christian?
Now, that is without even getting into other information that has been publicised such as crooked deals involving taking peoples land for baseball stadiums / personal gain and funeralgate. (remember that one?) His actions do not bear out that he is a Christian on MANY such incidents.
While I must admit that I fail miserably when it comes to living the life that God wants me to live, just as all Christians do, I also do not go around saying that God guides my every step as I fail, let alone as I knowingly do wrong. It would be demeaning and dare I say blasphemy to do so.
So, the contradiction is what bothers me. Jimmy Carter may not have been the best president we ever had, but he lives his faith to this day. His actions let us know that he is a Christian. He did not run on being a Christian, or broadcast all through his presidency that he was a Christian. As far as I know he never claimed publically that God wanted him to be president. He likely prayed on the issue, but he had no need to tell such. It was between him and God... And probably his wife. He worked towards peace and made great progress with Israel. There was no contradiction in his faith and how he governed. People knew he was a Christian from his actions, not his words.
Perhaps my life expeerience has been with those that live rather than tout their faith and therefore I expect a little more reverence, a little more contemplation and quietness, a little more honesty in motives. But, that is my take on it. The contradiction between what Bush says and what he does leaves a bitter taste in my mouth and a hurt in my heart for what the world is going through at his hands.
God forgive him for he know not what he does crosses my mind, except I feel certain that he knows exactly what he's doing. It's not his faith that is disturbing so much as that it is used as a political tool.
That being said, of course there is also the whole issue of seperation of church and state. I am merely addressing here the dislike of Bush based on his faith issue.
Sorry Squinney. I don't require sainthood of you, me, or the President. I would have to look at the quote in context along with body language and tone of voice to believe that Bush mocked a woman going to the electric chair. I appreciate Bush's convictions and his outlook on life. I deplore a LOT of his fiscal and social policy, but these do not disqualify him as our national leader. I haven't agreed 100% with any other president either.
Look at the Bill Clinton quotes re his faith that I posted and then look at his treatment of women. Have any problems with that? No, because you liked Clinton. But then I wouldn't connect faith and his treatment of women so that I could call him a hypocrite either.
George Bush is treating religion no differently than Clinton did, Reagan did, Carter did. The only problem any of you have with Bush on this issue, in my opinion, is that he is Bush, a Republican, and religion is a convenient way to criticize or slam him. Some did the same to Clinton when he was in office too, and I objected to that just as strenuously when the criticism was unfair. (And I held Clinton in utter contempt).
I think I made it pretty clear that I do not require sainthood either. I do require some consistancy between words and actions.
You deplore a LOT of his fiscal and social policies but that doesn't disqualify him as president? Then what does?
Bill Clinton did not cater to the right wing fundamentalist, or claim to have God on his side. He did not call his bombing attempt against Bin Laden a crusade or a fight between good and evil.
GW IS treating religion completely differnt from past presidents you mentioned. I don't get the sense that you are open to that possibility, though.
I think GWB has gotten much much more right than he has gotten wrong. And for that reason, I will continue to criticize him for what I think are some imprudent issues in fiscal and social policy, but I can criticize anybody on some things without having to condemn that person in whole.
The only reason, I believe, that you see GWB's words as somehow more dangerous or improper or imprudent than what Clinton said is because he's GWB. You honestly cannot make a case for that with anything other than your gut.
I think Bill Clinton pandered his faith to the point of ridiculousness and I have yet to see GWB do that. Does that alone make Clinton evil and GWB good? No. But it is instructive on how prejudice and bias can color our perception of anything.
I have honestly looked at this from every perspective and using every source I could find in a reasonable length of time. The only thing driving this diatribe against GWB's faith and/or statements about faith is good old fashioned prejudice and bigotry. That's how I see it.
<applause for Squinney>
and for the bear who loves her
Foxfyre wrote:Well I feel sorry for anyone who is 'enraged' when the President speaks of his faith. I think that is a really sad commentary on our times. There are so many other things to be enraged by than a simple statement, if quoted accurately, in an interview, not a policy statement. But the ABB people are not apt to be reasonable or even handed when it comes to dislike or hate for the president or apparently for Christians who do not mind that their president includes God in his life and work.
I'm just grateful that this is not a universally shared sentiment.
How are Bush's statements any different from this?
Quote:
"I don't think I could do my job as President," Clinton said, "much less continue to try to grow as a person in the absence of my faith in God and my attempt to learn more about what it should be and grow. It provides a solace and support in the face of all these problems that I am not smart enough to solve."
(ABC Interview by Peggy Wehmeyer, "American Agenda", March 22, 1994.)
Quote:And so, my fellow Americans, at the edge of the 21st century, let us begin with energy and hope, with faith and discipline, and let us work until our work is done. The scripture says, "And let us not be weary in well-doing, for in due season, we shall reap, if we faint not." 41 From this joyful mountaintop of celebration, we hear a call to service in the valley. We have heard the trumpets. We have changed the guard. And now, each in our way, and with God's help, we must answer the call. 42 Thank you and God bless you all. (Bill Clinton's First Inaugeral Address Jan 21, 1993)
Quote:"Sometimes I think the environment in which we operate is entirely too secular. The fact that we have freedom of religion doesn't mean we need to try to have freedom from religion. It doesn't mean that those of us who have faith shouldn't frankly admit that we are animated by the faith, that we try to live by it, and that it does affect what we feel, what we think, and what we do.
Bill Clinton at a White House Prayer Breakfast August 30, 1993
Quote:"Across America, schools and faith-based organizations are telling us they want to build new and effective partnerships, like the large number of faith-based groups involved in America Reads or the Shiloh Baptist-Seaton Elementary School partnership, which offers after-school activities here in Washington, DC. Faith-based organizations in schools, though different in many ways, do often share important goals: expanding opportunities to learn, lifting children's lives. Our new guidelines will help them work together on common ground to meet constitutional muster, to avoid making students uncomfortable because they come from different religious traditions, while helping students make the most of their God-given talents. These guidelines also tell us that a consensus is emerging among educators and religious leaders and among defenders of the first amendment. So many of them have endorsed our efforts. Their voices echo the words of George Washington who said that Americans have, and I quote, 'abundant reason to rejoice, that in this land every person may worship God according to the dictates of his own heart.'
"Today, as we count the days down to the end of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st, we know that this fundamental and precious liberty is still strong. We are determined that it will remain so, not just for our own children but for generations yet to come." -- President Clinton's Radio Address, 18 December 1999
Did these enrage you people like Bush's statements do?
"You people" is not a nice way to address people.
Having said, I didn't know that Clinton was in favor of faith based programs. I didn't pay attention to politics back then. In any event I disapprove of his endorsing of faith based programs just as much as Bush's and other republicans and even some democrats. I just think it is a bad thing all around to mix government with religion even though I do believe in God and Jesus Christ and I do believe in prayer just as much as anyone else.
The statements that Clinton made were about faith in God and it sustained him. The statements that Bush made was about how God wanted him to be president. Two different things.
Gosh this is going to go on forever.
