34
   

Are We Ready For a Woman President? Really?

 
 
snood
 
  4  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2015 04:43 pm
I apologize for the length of this post, but I needed a lot of words to say it.

Some folks are pointing out this apparent automatic connection that if they are against Hillary then someone or a lot of someones will assume they are against women. I understand what they are saying - The same thing was done with Obama - people would say, "Just because I don't like Obama that doesn't make me a racist." I would mumble "bullshit" to myself, but had no way to dispute that.

Here's the thing - I think a whole lot of people hate the idea of a Black man in the white house, but can never admit that, so they find things they really hate about his "demeanor" or "attitude", or they exaggerate the significance of him not having his hand over his heart at exactly the right moment before the National Anthem, or not wearing a goddamn flag pin.

They're pretty much straight-up no chaser racists, but they could never ever admit that. I think there will be a lot of that with misogynists and Hillary. I think it's a fair bet that a lot of men (and women too) are just not okay with a woman holding arguably the most powerful office on earth. But they can never, ever admit that - heavens, no. So they will carp about her personality traits, or her stiffness, or her hundred other things that don't amount to ****.

I think this state of affairs has nothing to do with the individuals - Obama and Hillary. I think it has everything to do with stubborn prejudices that can never come out into the light of day. This is not to say that people can't have legitimate differences with those two politicians, not at all. It's just to say that too much of the time, my bullshit meter is buzzing while they voice those differences.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2015 05:09 pm
@snood,
I agree with that underlying concern as the US is a bundled burlap bag of smaller sacks filled with people's feelings, long term loyalties, well researched conclusions, ridiculous biases, familial teachings, and brushing off of family teachings, just like the rest of the world but possibly more complicated given our melting pot. I wish us luck.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2015 05:25 pm
@snood,
I think there are plenty of people who think she's dishonest and they can't stand her. I'm a damn woman myself. I'd LOVE to see a strong, good woman in office, but I wouldn't vote for anything in a skirt to achieve it.

Did you really think everyone who didn't vote for Obama was a racist?
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2015 05:37 pm
@snood,
Quote:

I think this state of affairs has nothing to do with the individuals - Obama and Hillary. I think it has everything to do with stubborn prejudices that can never come out into the light of day. This is not to say that people can't have legitimate differences with those two politicians, not at all. It's just to say that too much of the time, my bullshit meter is buzzing while they voice those differences.


Nonsense! There is a big difference between the racism faced by Obama, and the criticism (some of which is self-inflicted) faced by Hillary. To compare the two is really nonsensical.

When Obama was running in 2008, he faced vicious attacks of a type that previous candidates had never faced. (Ironically some of these attacks came from Hillary supporters).

- They questioned his citizenship.
- They attacked his religion.
- They compared him to a monkey.
- They ridiculed pictures of him in Kenyan traditional clothing.
- They marched around with signs about "Lyin' Africans" (do you remember these).

Compare this with what John McCain faced....

- McCain was questioned for his role in the Iraq war.
- McCain was brought up for previous scandals that some people called partisan.
- McCain was accused (ultimately unsuccessfully) of being responsible for the deaths of Americans.
- McCain's behavior and actions in office were used to paint him as untrustworthy.

Now tell me... about these "attacks" that Clinton is facing. How do they compare to what President Obama faced? How are they any different than the attacks that John McCain faced? Give me examples please.

What Hillary Clinton is facing is equivalent to what every top tier candidate faces. What Obama faced was uniquely hateful and insidious.

There really is no comparison.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2015 06:05 pm

0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2015 07:08 pm
What we are hearing from critics of Sec. Clinton is the constant drumbeat of the politics of personal destruction. Her opponents have been trying to discredit her since back when Bill Clinton was running for office.

Ill try to make this as brief as possible but all these smear campaigns require some examination. When Obama and Clinton decided to run for the nomination in 2008 the uber-conservatives damn near wet their pants. Dear God, the Democrats might actually run a black man or (patooie) Hilary, the anti-Christ. Around that time we were at a gathering of my daughter-in-laws family. Her sister asked me who I hoped would get the nomination, Hilary or Obama. I told her I would vote for the nominee and I also thought either candidate would do a great job. I also said that I expected a lot of blowback regardless of who was nominated. If it were Hilary, I expected 4 to 8 years of rehashing whitewater, Vince Foster, Monica, what a jerk she was for staying with her husband. If it were Obama, we would have 4 to 8 years of veiled racism regarding place of birth, being a closet muslim, paling around with terrorists and of course 'Does he really love Jesus". And thats what we have had for the last 8 years. The criticism is bullshit as far as Im concerned, Holy Crap he killed Osama Bin Laden but that still hasn't been lauded as a gutsy successful accomplishment.

I expected it to be bad, but I never thought the Minorty leader and whip would refuse a request to meet with the President because they had calendar conflicts, or some rude asshole would shout out during the State of the Union. It's been relentless. House republicans have been insolent and shown great disrespect for the office of the President.

Hilary has been called a liar, unfit, deceitful and when she was First Lady detractors murmured rumors such as, she's a whore, she's a lesbian, she's only married to Bill to advance her own career. That's probably not going to stop because her opponents have done such a good job of smearing her reputation and repeating falsehoods over, and over and over. I think Hillary would be a fine President. She has the best resume of anyone currently running. Is it misogyny? Sure it is. The mere fact that women are also piling on is testament how successful the anti-Hilary group has been spreading lies and innuendo.

I would like to see Hillary win, but I'm not looking forwardd to another 4 to 8 years of petty bullshit. I like Hilary because she can do the job, less just because I want a women in the White House. For the good of the country, I want the best man or woman to hold that office.

I respect others choice for who they support to become President. I know there are few online that share my view, but thats also fine with me. I just wish Americans would exercise more discernment when it comes to outrageous slurs. The old canard 'believe half of what you see and none of what you hear' needs to be repeated.


ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2015 07:16 pm
@glitterbag,
Well stated, said by someone not her biggest fan.
glitterbag
 
  0  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2015 07:31 pm
@ossobuco,
Thanks, I can't expect everyone to be a big fan of Hillary, but if you get a chance see if you can borrow a copy of 'Blinded by the Right: The Conscience of an Ex-Conservative' by David Brock. He was one of the authors who penned many of the so-called criticisms of Arkansas State Police who claimed to witness tantrums by Hillery when Bill was Governor. The book above was written when he became disillusioned and disappointed with himself for penning romors that he failed to fact check. I think he now heads a group that attempt to ferret out the truth in rumors.
Osso, your a gem
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  0  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2015 07:36 pm
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

What we are hearing from critics of Sec. Clinton is the constant drumbeat of the politics of personal destruction. Her opponents have been trying to discredit her since back when Bill Clinton was running for office.

And before running for President - starting back when he was still in Arkansas!
https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/c/conason-president.html


Ill try to make this as brief as possible but all these smear campaigns require some examination. When Obama and Clinton decided to run for the nomination in 2008 the uber-conservatives damn near wet their pants. Dear God, the Democrats might actually run a black man or (patooie) Hilary, the anti-Christ. Around that time we were at a gathering of my daughter-in-laws family. Her sister asked me who I hoped would get the nomination, Hilary or Obama. I told her I would vote for the nominee and I also thought either candidate would do a great job. I also said that I expected a lot of blowback regardless of who was nominated. If it were Hilary, I expected 4 to 8 years of rehashing whitewater, Vince Foster, Monica, what a jerk she was for staying with her husband. If it were Obama, we would have 4 to 8 years of veiled racism regarding place of birth, being a closet muslim, paling around with terrorists and of course 'Does he really love Jesus". And thats what we have had for the last 8 years. The criticism is bullshit as far as Im concerned, Holy Crap he killed Osama Bin Laden but that still hasn't been lauded as a gutsy successful accomplishment.

It's amazing to me what this man has accomplished - especially when he faced opposition so brazen they had a meeting the day of his inauguration to vow opposition to everything he did and try to keep him from having anything that could be considered a legislative accomplishment.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/25/robert-draper-anti-obama-campaign_n_1452899.html


I expected it to be bad, but I never thought the Minorty leader and whip would refuse a request to meet with the President because they had calendar conflicts, or some rude asshole would shout out during the State of the Union. It's been relentless. House republicans have been insolent and shown great disrespect for the office of the President.

There has never before been the kind of disrespect for the President that this man has endured. And just for the record he has endured it with grace and quiet strength - an example I proudly point to when I want to show someone how to stand up to pressure.

Hilary has been called a liar, unfit, deceitful and when she was First Lady detractors murmured rumors such as, she's a whore, she's a lesbian, she's only married to Bill to advance her own career. That's probably not going to stop because her opponents have done such a good job of smearing her reputation and repeating falsehoods over, and over and over. I think Hillary would be a fine President. She has the best resume of anyone currently running. Is it misogyny? Sure it is. The mere fact that women are also piling on is testament how successful the anti-Hilary group has been spreading lies and innuendo.

It's truly amazing. The republicans cannot govern and they have no ideas to move the country forward, but they have a finely honed expertise at wallowing in slop and smearing everyone with it.

I would like to see Hillary win, but I'm not looking forwardd to another 4 to 8 years of petty bullshit. I like Hilary because she can do the job, less just because I want a women in the White House. For the good of the country, I want the best man or woman to hold that office.

I respect others choice for who they support to become President. I know there are few online that share my view, but thats also fine with me. I just wish Americans would exercise more discernment when it comes to outrageous slurs. The old canard 'believe half of what you see and none of what you hear' needs to be repeated.

People seem to be willfully ignorant of the plain fact that whatever personality traits one finds unappealing about her, she is clearly as qualified and prepared for the job (or moreso) as anyone who has ever run.

Thanks, GB. It needed saying.





ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2015 08:38 pm
@snood,
Snood, this isn't a carp as I am likely unusual, vision problems. Could you, when you respond in a different color, make the color more different? dark red, perhaps, or flagrant color of your choice? or italicize? or underline?

I think this is an internet wide problemo for some of us, not just here on a2k.
When I first saw this post, I thought it was all just a quote. I know most see the difference immediately.

ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2015 08:51 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:
The republicans cannot govern and they have no ideas to move the country forward, but they have a finely honed expertise at wallowing in slop and smearing everyone with it.


they've got control of traditional media in the US

it's always interesting to look at things from media elsewhere

if you (the generic v specific you) don't already follow http://www.pri.org/ please consider it

I sometimes stay up way too late listening to PRI on the radio. I invariably hear something I have to look up in the morning.

the other source of non-traditional information/news that I've found interesting is http://monocle.com/radio/

http://monocle.com/radio/shows/midori-house/ in particular gets very interesting, knowledgeable international commentators

Quote:
Join Monocle’s editors and guests drawn from our unrivalled pool of international commentators, analysts and experts to unpack the issues dominating the day’s agenda. From diplomatic wrangles and border disputes to big business and frontline politics, this is the programme you need to hear to make sense of a dynamic and sometimes volatile world.


great podcast setup if you can't pick them up or livestream
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2015 08:52 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
When I first saw this post, I thought it was all just a quote. I know most see the difference immediately.


I have the same experience. Looks like a giant quote unless I examine the post closely.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2015 09:31 pm
I will attempt to construct my responses so they look like responses. Not sure what color would work better than the blue to gently contrast, but I'll look around.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  0  
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2015 06:34 am
There is a new book out that is pretty vicious in my opinion. I don't think it will convince anyone besides those already against her though.

“Hillary Clinton has a long history of being domestically violent with Bill,”
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  3  
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2015 06:56 am
i've never considered gender, race or religion (well maybe religion, i'd definitely vote for an avowed athiest or agnostic) when casting a ballot

why is this such an issue, isn't non douchebaginess the real criteria for a leader
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2015 07:24 am
@djjd62,
Hear, hear!! Non-douchebagginess!!! The Sanders ticket!
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2015 07:27 am
@djjd62,
Yes, exactly Dj. The problem with Hillary Clinton isn't that she is a woman, it is that she is a Clinton.

The last Clinton to run for office came with the same amount of scandal that Hillary is now having. There were rumors that he cut corners on deals, and that he had an issue with female staffers. He was called "Slick Willy" since at least his days in the State Arkansas.

Then we were subjected to the Blue Dress on National TV. For whatever the claim that it was a witch hunt by Republicans, the fact is that Bill Clinton lived up to his reputation... he did, in fact, have oral sex in the Oval Office. His problems stemmed from his own behavior.

Now we have the next Clinton with the same issues with credibility and questions about ethics. This wasn't about misogyny when it was Bill Clinton's character in question. And it isn't misogyny now.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2015 07:29 am
@maxdancona,
I agree with Max. Bush was treated with virulent hatred s have many othrs been. Someone actually cited "compared to a monkey" as a serious complaint? That is so mild compared to what has been said about W Bush: he orchestrated 911? He is personally responsible for the deaths of service personnel to enrich himself?

Obama may have had the worst Congress to deal with, but he has not had the most significant lack of respect generally.

It's always about whose ox is being gored.

He was voted in TWICE.
snood
 
  3  
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2015 07:57 am
Quote:
Obama may have had the worst Congress to deal with, but he has not had the most significant lack of respect generally.


I strongly disagree, and really find it hard to fathom that anyone can objectively look at the kinds of things that confronted these two, and come up with Bush as the most disrespected. I am willing to compare lists, but frankly am just too tired to do one right now.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  4  
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2015 09:21 am
@Lash,
Hell, I know that anyone who at this point still thinks Obama hasn’t been treated any worse than any other president is not going to be persuaded otherwise, but here’s a sampling of some of the foulest stuff anyway.

1. Leader of a foreign nation whose views are in conflict with the president is invited to speak at a joint session of Congress. The president is not even informed of this as a courtesy until the visit is already pending. Netanyahu said, “My speech is not intended to show any disrespect to President Obama or the esteemed office that he holds.” Really?

2. The leader of a foreign country would undoubtedly never be greeted at plane landing by an American official with a wagging finger in his face while news cameras watched. Republican Governor Jan Brewer did just that in January 2012 to the sitting President of the US for all the world to see. She said she did it because Obama made her feel “A little threatened.” Puh-lease.

3. No President has ever been refused a request to address congress – except one. President Obama asked John Boehner for a date to address Congress about jobs and the economy in September 2011 and was refused.

4. The whole birther fiasco and varying degrees of refusal by GOP leaders to disavow it was the most virulent between 2009-2011, but still rears its ugly head sometimes. What other president has had his very legitimacy as a citizen questioned this way?

5. Even in an age of general incivility, it’s astounding that a member of congress would have the lack of control to call the President – while he was addressing congress and the nation on worldwide television– a liar. Imagine if say, Maxine Waters had done this to George Bush. I know, I can’t even imagine it, either. That kind of open contempt has been reserved for this one president.

6. The signs and videos circulated by the GOP and Tea Party are too vile to share in polite company, but they were breathtaking in their sheer numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWbmEUIQOCQ

7. Maybe one of the most offensive shows of disrespect for this president was by Former NYCity Mayor Rudy Giuliani in a widely-publicized interview for Politico. It wasn’t an exception, it was how GOP officials regularly spoke of President Obama.
“I do not believe, and I know this is a horrible thing to say, but I do not believe that the president loves America,” former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani said, according to a story in Politico last month. “He doesn’t love you. And he doesn’t love me. He wasn’t brought up the way you were brought up and I was brought up through love of this country.” When Megyn Kelly of Fox News asked Giuliani whether he wanted to apologize, he said, “Not at all. I want to repeat it.” Giuliani would then tell the New York Times his remarks weren’t racist “since [Obama] was brought up by a white mother, a white grandfather, went to white schools”
 

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