Foxfyre wrote:And how many American doctors are emigrating to Canada?
That depends on how quickly Jesus' Canadian medical representative can find jobs for them.
Foxfyre wrote: And how many American doctors are emigrating to Canada?
And that would be relevant in any way in particular?
(and actually there are some every year - the clinic I go to is about 20% U.S. docs - apparently there's less bureaucracy to deal with here)
The point is that if hundreds of Canadian doctors emigrate to the U.S. but U.S. doctors are not emigrating to Canada, would that not speak to the question of which system the doctors prefer?
AMSA is essentially a student political action committee or group.
Quote:The American Medical Student Association (AMSA), with more than a half-century history of medical student activism, is the oldest and largest independent association of physicians-in-training in the United States. Founded in 1950, AMSA is a student-governed, non-profit organization committed to representing the concerns of physicians-in-training. AMSA began under the auspices of the American Medical Association (AMA) to provide medical students a chance to participate in organized medicine. Starting in 1960, the association refocused its energies on the problems of the medically underserved, inequities in our health-care system and related issues in medical education. Since 1968, AMSA has been a fully independent student organization. With approximately 50,000 members, including medical and premedical students, residents and practicing physicians, AMSA is committed to improving medical training as well as advancing the profession of medicine. AMSA focuses on four strategic priorities, including universal healthcare, disparities in medicine, diversity in medicine and transforming the culture of medical education. Today, AMSA continues its commitment to improving medical training and the nation's health
http://www.amsa.org/about/
The AMA opposes single-payer health system: supports coverage for uninsured by strengthening current system. The following includes a link to the AMA's proposals to reform health insurance.
So, in the face of being confronted with myths about the single payer plan, you conservatives blame the messenger and change the subject.
The issue is health. Not your feelings about health care, but the hard data.
The United States has a higher infant mortality than Canada.
The United States has a higher surgical mortality than Canada.
The United States has a lower life expectancy than Canada.
It seems, that the "best health care in the world" doesn't provide very good results.
This, despite the fact that the United States pays 40% more per capita for health care than Canada.
Your article explaining AMSA was very complimentary about that group of student doctors. I don't think you read it, but immediately concluded that because it was a student group, it had nothing to say. Read part of it again:
"Since 1968, AMSA has been a fully independent student organization. With approximately 50,000 members, including medical and premedical students, residents and practicing physicians, AMSA is committed to improving medical training as well as advancing the profession of medicine. AMSA focuses on four strategic priorities, including universal healthcare, disparities in medicine, diversity in medicine and transforming the culture of medical education. Today, AMSA continues its commitment to improving medical training and the nation's health
http://www.amsa.org/about/
They are to be dismissed? You have inadvertently given these students more credibility.
How many Americans go to Canada to get health care Billy? How many Canadians (and others peoples of the world) come to America to get health care? I'm honestly not knocking the Canadian system and appreciate that the Canadians like it. But Health Care is rated #1 by every study I've ever seen. Far more doctors come to America to practice medicine than leave America. People from other countries come here for health care they can't get in their own country or would have to wait too long. The number of Americans who go to other countries for health care (with exception of obtaining cheap prescription drugs) is miniscule by comparison.
If we dismantle the system we have in favor of a Canadian or a European system, will that change? I dare say the quality of health care available to the indigent (Medicade) and the elderly (Medicare) and the veterans (VA), all on single pay systems, is not the quality of care avaialble to people with private health insurance. If physician fees are artificially capped by a single payer system, will the best and the brightest stay here? It doesn't feel right to Americans for excellence to be paid on a par with mediocre or substandard.
There are far more implications to consider here than the fact that you do not like those greedy conservatives. And the only one talking about feelings here is you.
Foxfyre, you wrote:
"The point is that if hundreds of Canadian doctors emigrate to the U.S. but U.S. doctors are not emigrating to Canada, would that not speak to the question of which system the doctors prefer?"
About 500 Canadian doctors emigrate to the United States every year and represent about 1% of Canadian doctors. That means that 99% choose to stay in Canada. Does that not speak to the question of which system the doctors prefer?
That 500 number is mentioned earlier in the thread Billy, so I won't even ask you to substantiate it. Let's go with that number along with the fact, already mentioned, that enrollment in Canadian medical schools is down.
Canada's population I believe is about 31,000,000 which is roughly 12% of the U.S. population. If 500 doctors are 1% of all doctors in Canada, that means Canada has roughly 50,000 doctors or one physician for every 600 or so people. If 500 doctors leave Canada every year, that means 300,000 Canadians have to squeeze into the care of the remaining doctors. If that is happening every year, don't you see that as becoming a problem at some time? The fact that within the next 30 years it is projected that 1 in 5 Canadians will be among the elderly will only compound the problem. Apparently there aren't many, if any, doctors going to Canada from other places. And I doubt there are many, if any, good doctors leaving the U.S. to go somewhere else.
Also do Canadians have complete free choice of what doctor they see? Do you want your government telling you what doctor you have to go to?
Of course we can do health care better than we are doing now. Of course there are things we can do to help the working poor get health insurance. But I haven't seen the U.S. government do anything yet that was less costly than the private sector doing the same thing, and I can't believe the U.S. government taking over health care payments will do anything but kill hundred of thousands of private sector jobs and diminish the quality of health care that we have.
Hats off to Canada for adopting a system that is right for them. But population wise, Canada is comparable to one of the U.S.'s larger states. It is likely their system would not be as easily accomplished in the enormous lumbering beast that is the United States.
Yes, Canadians have free choice of what doctor they see.
There is nothing stopping individual states from adopting single payer systems. New Mexico toyed with that idea awhile back, but couldn't come up with a plan that was not considerably more costly than what we have now. I couldn't see a state like Utah where poverty is negligible wanting anything to do with a single payer system while a state like Mississippi with a much pooer population would probably embrace it.
I wonder how many Americans would be willing to have their personal taxes raised to cover the 40+ Americans who don't have health insurance?
Foxfyre wrote:
I wonder how many Americans would be willing to have their personal taxes raised to cover the 40+ Americans who don't have health insurance?
No problem here, since we know this "solidarity princip" now for more than 120 years :wink:
Well its always magnanimous to say we wouldn't mind at all to pay a little more to help out the other guy. But no way Americans who are already paying an average of 40 to 50% of their incomes in taxes will agree to having the federal government alone take 50% or so in taxes to finance universal health care coverage. Those paying little or no taxes of course will be all for it.
foxfire wrote : " I wonder how many Americans would be willing to have their personal taxes raised to cover the 40+ Americans who don't have health insurance? " ... reminds me of what happened in canada during the previous energy crisis. some albertans had bumperstickers on their cars reading : "let the bastards in ontario freeze" . now of course it's the farmers in alberta who suffer because of the mad cow disease; the exports of beef and cattle have dropped enourmously. so the cattle farmers are asking for help from the federal govaerment , that is, from the canadian taxpayers including those from ontario. i have NOT sen any bumperstickers to tell the farmers to go to hell. as a matter of fact there is a combined effort underway to increase the consumption of CANADIAN (speak : alberta) beef. we will be going to a barbeque on saturday to help promote CANADIAN (alberta) beef. seems to me, we are all sitting in the same boat, and to me it seems best to make sure the boat does not sink rather than throwing the weakest ones overboard. that's the way i see it, anyway. hbg
Foxfyre wrote:That 500 number is mentioned earlier in the thread Billy, so I won't even ask you to substantiate it. Let's go with that number along with the fact, already mentioned, that enrollment in Canadian medical schools is down.
Canada's population I believe is about 31,000,000 which is roughly 12% of the U.S. population. If 500 doctors are 1% of all doctors in Canada, that means Canada has roughly 50,000 doctors or one physician for every 600 or so people. If 500 doctors leave Canada every year, that means 300,000 Canadians have to squeeze into the care of the remaining doctors. If that is happening every year, don't you see that as becoming a problem at some time? The fact that within the next 30 years it is projected that 1 in 5 Canadians will be among the elderly will only compound the problem. Apparently there aren't many, if any, doctors going to Canada from other places. And I doubt there are many, if any, good doctors leaving the U.S. to go somewhere else.
Also do Canadians have complete free choice of what doctor they see? Do you want your government telling you what doctor you have to go to?
Of course we can do health care better than we are doing now. Of course there are things we can do to help the working poor get health insurance. But I haven't seen the U.S. government do anything yet that was less costly than the private sector doing the same thing, and I can't believe the U.S. government taking over health care payments will do anything but kill hundred of thousands of private sector jobs and diminish the quality of health care that we have.
Hats off to Canada for adopting a system that is right for them. But population wise, Canada is comparable to one of the U.S.'s larger states. It is likely their system would not be as easily accomplished in the enormous lumbering beast that is the United States.
You've got a lot of research to do, Foxfyre.
And part of that should be about the number of Americans who come to Canada to obtain illegal health cards - so they can get treatment that they don't have access to in the U.S. Another piece of your research can be into the foreign doctors who come to Canada hoping to get work here.
Do your diggin', kid.
Well, there's no perfect system. But given the amount the US spends on health care, the system here could be a lot better. The fact that Canada's system also has flaws doesn't mean that universal health care is a bad idea...
ebeth writes:
Quote:And part of that should be about the number of Americans who come to Canada to obtain illegal health cards - so they can get treatment that they don't have access to in the U.S. Another piece of your research can be into the foreign doctors who come to Canada hoping to get work here.
Do your diggin', kid.
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I would be happy to look at any statistics you may have on this ebeth. It has not shown up in my research.
Foxfyre, I have many many relatives who are Canadian, and none of them would trade the Canadian medical system for the US medical system.
That's what the Candians who have posting to this thread say too. I said in an earlier post that single payer health care might work in some states. (We couldn't find a way to make it work in New Mexico but that doesn't prove it can't be done.) I think its fine if Canada is happy with their health care. I think its fine if a state wishes to go single payer. I think it will be a disaster if a huge megolith like the United States attempts it however.
Fox,
Is that because the rich will have to pay, what you believe is more than, their fair share.
