Universal Health Care Canada Style

Here in the US, there is close to a one year wait list for colonoscopy, if no indication of fecal blood.

Why do so many Canadians come to the US for medical treament?

The longest I've heard here (and I live in a more rural region, no big [university] hospitals nearby, is a fortnight waiting for it.

And of course, people are complaining that it lasts such long.

I must admit, however, that they don't make colonoscopies here just for fun.
There's always an indication why to do such.

" I must admit, however, that they don't make colonoscopies here just for fun. " ... walter: did you realize that this is an (un)intentional joke ? ... our physician subscribes to a physicians joke magazine called "stitches" (referring to both the medical term "stitches", and also " to be in stitches " - laughing heartily); one joke showed a guy being wheeled in to the operating room proclaiming loudly : "i'm only here to clean the windows ... " . our doctor thinks it's good for us to see that he has a sense of humour (at the patients expense ?). anyway, i always grab the mag as soon as we enter the waiting room. hbg

Been away, haven't had time to read all that has preceded.

It's important to note that the Fraser Institute, which is quoted and relied upon by the writer of the original article posted, is a corporate-funded 'think tank' who issue frequent policy statements which are always - and I do mean always - in support of rightwing causes and values. This is the purpose for which the body was established and they are not in any sense an objective research or policy voice.

My experiences match those of the other Canadians (and that of Walter) in terms of service...I've never had a problem with it other than the wishing the emergency room at one of this large city's hospitals had been swifter (a one hour wait with young daughter in some pain) but where is such not the case?

Jer, I'll point out, can speak with some authority on these matters as his mother is the head administrator at a large medium-sized city hospital.

As others have mentioned, the use of the loaded term (for Americans) 'socialized' is an immediate indication of where the writer will be going with his arguments and, more importantly, with his perceptions and his sources for information.

So Blatham, you are saying the statistics compiled by the Frazer Institute as quoted are incorrect?

Eh, where?

i certainly would not want to base my opinion solely upon the statisticts of ANY ONE instituation. i find that i gain a better understanding of a subject under discussions by taking various statistics, observations and even points of view under consideration. ... having worked in the insurance industry for many years i think i'll share an actuarial joke with you, because it higtlights the difficulties of relying on a single set of calculations/statistics. ... some actuaries were stopped by a fast flowing stream on their way back to headoffice from an actuarial convention. being actuaries they made a number of calculations and calculated the average depth to be 5 feet. since they were all 6 foot plus they had no fear in crossing the stream ... several days later there were a number of funerals for drowned actuaries - don't accuse me of being cruel to actuaries; they would often enough tell this story . hbg

See the initial post that started the thread, Walter.

That story is probably more metaphorically true than false Hamburger.

Our local story regards meteorology and weather forcasts. You put 10 meteorologists in a room and have each predict tomorrow's weather. If 3 out of the 10 say it will rain and 7 say it won't, you have a 30% chance of rain tomorrow.

Still waiting on you Canajuns to answer the question: irregardless of the source of Williams' data stated in the thesis starting this thread, does he cite accurate data?

This is important not at all to knock the Canadian health care system, but to futher the local debate regarding single pay health care. I figure with 12% of the U.S. population, any problems Canada has would be magnified 8 to 10 times trying to adapt them to the United States.

foxfyre

You inquire whether the fellow's data (actually, it is the Fraser Institute's data, which he takes as authoritative) is correct. I assume you refer to wait times, which is all he addresses outside of the figure on doctors leaving (no mention of doctors arriving, we'll note).

As you've already heard from all the Canadians who have replied, none of us have experienced anything like the situation which the FI suggests. The specifics of the FI claims would have to be verified, and that is rather more work than I or anyone else will likely put themselves to simply in order to appease your curiosity or to argue with you or the author.

But you ought to be getting the idea by now, from those of us who rely upon and use the Canadian medical system (plus our families and friends) that our system is highly valued.

As to wait lists, they have been growing longer over the last two decades or so (this is my experience and that of my family members working in medicine). That increase in wait-time is coincident with decreased funding by the federal government (initially under Brian Mulroney heading a right wing government) to the provinces, who deliver the medical services. Your author likely doesn't know this, and the Fraser Institute is not not in the habit of advancing facts which compromise their ideology or which work at odds with the folks who fund them.

So, they won't (and your author won't) be expected to let you in on some other research. See below, and note (under 'the evidence' section) that the US medical system falls below the Canadian (and not-for-profit) sytems in very important aspects...LINK
But do read it all. It will be good for your soul.

Thank you so much for recounting your and your acquaintances' extensive personal experiences in answer to Foxfyre's questions ... it's always good to check what could be ideologized general statements with people's actual experiences. From the horse's mouth, so to speak.

"Free Health Care "
by Walter E. Williams


"Let's start out by not quibbling with America's socialists' false claim that health-care service is a human right that people should have regardless of whether they can pay for it or not - it should be free."
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let me see if i can perhaps narrow the differences of opinions that we have . if i read williams' correctly, he feels that people do not have the right to medical care unless they can pay for it either directly or through their own personal insurance; he states : " false claim that health-care service is a human right that people should have" . would ANYONE want to deny the destitute the human right to medical care ? apparently williams sees nothing wrong with denying health care; why else would he express his opinion this forcefully ?
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as far as the statistics published by the fraser institute, i can not dispute or approve of them - personally i do not have sufficient knowledge of the subject. i have watched more than one TV debate on the subject of the fraser report on the canadian healthcare system in general. the best way i can sum it up is that the health professsionals and health care analysts are not all of one mind on the subject, and the opinions expressed and buttressed with all kinds of statistics and public opinion polls range all over the map. the extreme range from one end of the scale to the other : "everything should be covered by public health care" to " nothing should be covered by public health care " - with various shades in between ; which would really describe the canadian system best. to state my own situation : as a senior i am covered by "socialist" health care for physicians services, basic prescription drugs and hospital costs. ... i need to insert here that in ontario we now have to pay what can best be desribed as a "health insurance tax" based upon taxable income but capped at a certain income level. i figure it will cost about $300 - 500 a year for mrs. h and me ... having worked in the insurance business for many years i wanted to be sure that we also have coverage for some other medical costs. for about $1,000 a year in premiums we get reimbursed for "non-listed" prescription drugs, extra and home-nursing care, 80% of dental costs (capped), private hospital room, out-of-country insurance for services not paid for by the provincial health insurance plan, and a few other goodies (physio, massage, eyeglasses ... ). while our plan is pretty close to a deluxe-coverage (heavily subsidized by my former employer), many people have company sponsored health insurance (usually called "extended health benefits"). from this i think it is clear that canada (and ontario) does not have a complete "socialist" health care system.
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let me jump to miller's question of why so many canadians get their health care in the U.S. ... i know that some canadians do get health care in the U.S., but you would have to have an awful lot of money to pay for it personally ( "out of country" insurance covers only emergency treatments outside canada). a few years ago there was quite a shortage of orthopedic surgeons in canada (there was also a line-up for certain cancer treatments in ontario) and the ontario health insurance plan (known as OHIP), paid for operations and treatments performed in the U.S. ... from what i know, no or only very few patients are sent for treatment in the U.S. at this time.
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here is a point that may be of interest to our american friends. some americans come to canada for medical treatments (i have no numbers on this). i'll give some examples : 1) i recently visited our local general hospital(a teaching hospital affiliated with the local university - queen's u). prominently displayed was a certificate of commendation from the commander of fort drum (home of the 10th mountain division U.S. army). it was given "in appreciation of the services provided by the kingston general hospital and staff provided to the 10th mountain division" . i don't know how much the 10th mountain relies on the med services of our hospital, but i don't think these commendations are a dime a dozen (we are about an hour's drive away from fort drum , but the watertown and syracuse hospitals are closer to fort drum). i am assuming that the kingston hospital is supplying some services not available in watertown or syracuse. ... 2) the SHOULDICE clinic in toronto (world-famous for hernia operations - it even rated a TV documentary) has patients from all over the world including american patients (i should supply a link because it actually has an entry by an ex-patient from the U.S. - here it is www.shouldice.com ). ... we have also been told by nurses working at the local hospital, that it is not unusual to have patients come over from N.Y.state for medical procedures (perhaps lower cost in canada; i really don't know). ... i should add that the shouldyce clinic is a "private" hospital working within the OHIP system.
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i think this is probably all i can say on this subject. much has been contributed by the many participants in this thread, which i think can only benefit all of us, whether we are for "socialist" health-care, completely private care or something in-between. if something more of interest comes i'll jump back in (despite my earlier statement !). hbg

just a footnote to the shouldice hospital entry . they have operated on about 290,000 patients of which 55,000 were americans. you can get the details in the shouldice link. hbg

Extremely helpful Hamburger. Thankyou. Adding it all to my arsenal of research here.

HEALTHCARE
foxfire : perhaps you have already seen this article about APPLE and steve jobs' health; while it does not tie in directly with what we have been discussing, it shows the wide interest in health and healthcare. ... just read an article in this morning's local paper again warning us that our present healthcare system is not susstainable in the long run because in its present form it simply eats up too many of our financial (and other resources). i agree (reluctantly with that). i think something will break if we do not change. so, who or what do we throw overboard ? i think we can discuss this later this week. hbgAPPLE AND THE HEALTH OF STEVE JOBS

It is a point worth considering Hamburger. The reason I am so curious about the virtues and drawbacks of the Canadian system is that it is the one most often held up as an example of what U.S. healthcare shoudl look like. But I see the problems inherent in the single payer healthcare we already have and imagine that magnified a hundred times over. How would U.S. healthcare on a Canadian system look if the problems are magnified 8 to 10 times with our much larger population?

Again your evenly considered input is much appreciated. I suspect we will wind up with some of the best points of the Canadian system along with some fiercely independent options for the liberarians among us.

here is a question for anyone who watched tonight's NBC special "critical condition" . it dealt with patients at the long island hospital. two of the patients had been injured severely in the collision of the staten island ferry. from watching the show it appeared that one patient - who was not insured - was eventially covered by medicare; the other patient was covered by private insurance. what we could not understand was why the staten island ferry corporation would not have to cover the medical expenses (no doubt they have to carry insurance for accidents ?). anyone have an answer to this ? hbg

No idea. In most states businesses can include a 'no fault' med pay on their insurance policies that pays reasonable medical bills for persons who are inadvertently injured on the business property. In most states businesses do not have to carry med pay and, if they do not, their liability insurance would take care of medical bills if there was any negligence involved. For instance, trip over somebody's wrinkled doormat and that could be negligence. Trip over your own shoe laces and it would not. Med pay pays in both cases, but liability insurance pays only if there is any negligence; i.e. a wrinkled doormat that creates a tripping hazard.

So, if the Statten Island Ferry was not at fault for the accident and had no med pay, passenger injuries would not be covered. But weren't ferry crew members found to be at fault? Seems like charges were filed? In that case there would be clear negligence and liability insurance should kick in.

The legal process of filing suit can take quite awhile though and meanwhile the medical facilities would not want to wait for their money. So it may be the passengers had to pay up front and then expected to prevail in a lawsuit against the ferry.

I didn't follow it, after the ferry incident, but remember that it was speeding to the dock...

surely, this is not the injured persons' responsibility?

Without knowing the details there may be other variables at work. In routine accidents where liability is clear cut, most insurance companies usually pay for any immediate property damage and reasonable and necessary medical bills as they accrue. Once medical treatment is concluded and property damage is settled to the victim's satisfaction, any additional compensation for any loss of income and 'pain and suffering' are negotiated.

But in a large scale accident where there is potential of catastrophic loss such as in a ferry accident, there will often be people coming out of the woodwork claiming that they were on the ferry and were injured. It is not uncommon that several on the ferry will fake injuries and demand compensation. Chiropractors and personal injury attorneys descend like a swarm of locusts convincing the uninjured that they are injured and the injured that they are mortally wounded. So in these cases, the insurance company will be much slower to accept responsibility and much less eager to pay bills up front as the attorneys will be trying to push these as high as possible. (In a rough rule of thumb in the insurance business, the higher the med pay, the greater pain and suffering compensation the victim will get.)