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Universal Health Care Canada Style

 
 
Foxfyre
 
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:07 am
Note that John Kerry's proposed Health Care is reported to be only a few steps away from the Canadian plan and moving in that direction.

Canadian friends, is Williams all wet here?

Free Health Care
by Walter E. Williams


Let's start out by not quibbling with America's socialists' false claim that health-care service is a human right that people should have regardless of whether they can pay for it or not - it should be free. Before we buy into this socialist agenda, we might check out just what happens when health-care services are "free." Let's look at our neighbor to the north - Canada.

The Fraser Institute, a Vancouver, British Columbia-based think tank, has done yeomen's work keeping track of Canada's socialized health-care system. It has just come out with its 13th annual waiting-list survey. It shows that the average time a patient waited between referral from a general practitioner to treatment rose from 16.5 weeks in 2001-02 to 17.7 weeks in 2003. Saskatchewan had the longest average waiting time of nearly 30 weeks while Ontario had the shortest, 14 weeks.

Waiting lists also exist for diagnostic procedures such as computer tomography (CT), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), and ultrasound. Depending on what province and the particular diagnostic procedure, the waiting times can range from two to 24 weeks.

As reported in a December 2003 story by Kerri Houston for the Frontiers of Freedom Institute titled "Access Denied: Canada's Healthcare System Turns Patients into Victims" (http://ff.org/centers/ccfsp/pdf/ccsfp-1203-pp.pdf), in some instances, patients die on the waiting list because they become too sick to tolerate a procedure. Houston says that hip-replacement patients often end up non-ambulatory while waiting an average of 20 weeks for the procedure, and that's after having waited 13 weeks just to see the specialist. The wait to get diagnostic scans followed by the wait for the radiologist to read them just might explain why Cleveland, Ohio, has become Canada's hip-replacement center.

Adding to Canada's medical problems is the exodus of doctors. According to a March 2003 story in Canada News (www.canoe.ca), about 10,000 doctors left Canada during the 1990s. Compounding the exodus of doctors is the drop in medical school graduates. According to Houston, Ontario has chosen to turn to nurses to replace its bolting doctors. It's "creating" 369 new positions for nurse practitioners to take up the slack for the doctor shortage.

Some patients avoided long waits for medical services by paying for private treatment. In 2003, the government of British Columbia enacted Bill 82, an "Amendment to Strengthen Legislation and Protect Patients." On its face, Bill 82 is to "protect patients from inadvertent billing errors". That's on its face. But according to a January 2004 article written by Nadeem Esmail, for the Fraser Institute's Forum titled "Oh To Be A Prisoner," Bill 82 would disallow anyone from paying the clinical fees for private surgery, where previously only the patients themselves were forbidden from doing so. The bill also gives the government the power to levy fines of up to $20,000 on physicians who accept these fees or allow such a practice to occur. That means it is now against Canadian law to opt out of the Canadian health care system and pay for your own surgery.

Health care can have a zero price to the user, but that doesn't mean it's free or has a zero cost. The problem with a good or service having a zero price is that demand is going to exceed supply. Since price isn't allowed to make demand equal supply, other measures must be taken. One way to distribute the demand over a given supply is through queuing - making people wait. Another way is to have a medical czar who decides who is eligible, under what conditions, for a particular procedure -- for example, no hip replacement or renal dialysis for people over 70 or no heart transplants for smokers.

I'm wondering just how many Americans would like Canada's long waiting lists, medical czars deciding what treatments we get and an exodus of doctors.

Walter E. Williams
July 19, 2004
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/04/freehealthcare.html
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:16 am
Any writer on the subject who refers to "socialized medicine" tips his or her hand at the get-go. There's no better way to smear a person or concept than by using inflammatory language.

Are public schools examples of "socialized education"?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:18 am
Sure D'art.

And we even have a socialized military. What's the country coming to!?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:18 am
Yes D'artagnan. They are.
Socialized is 'evil' only if you choose to make it so.
Some things are properly socialized.
So can we return to the question rather than demonize the way in which it is phrased?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:28 am
The question is "Is Williams all wet here?"

The answer is "yes".

It is the US system with 43 million uninsured and quickly rising costs to businesses and employees alike that is broken.

We don't have to choose between the US system and the Canadian system, although on paper the Canadian system has similar outcomes with much less cost. Canada is competitive with the US on many public health metrics. For example Canada has a consistantly better infant mortality rate.

But Kerry isn't talking about Canada. He is talking about the US system. Bush's plan is pretty much more of the same-- help the drug and insurance companies and take away the legal rights of patients.

Kerry has a real plan to improve public health, reduce the ridiculous number of uninsured and to stop the spiraling costs of our broken health care system
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:34 am
Rolling Eyes This is a typical example of someone pointing out the absolute worst-case scenario regarding so-called 'free health care' in order to push a political agenda. First of all, Canadian health care is not free, we are taxed for it, that's where the money comes from. Second, due to some of these problems, re: long waiting lists, understaffed hospitals, a new tax has been implemented that comes off of every working person's paycheque. Third, nobody is forcing any Canadian to rely completely on our 'free' health care. OHIP, our health plan, covers necessary treatments, such as MRIs, seeing specialists, etc. IN FULL if you need to go to the US. The article is not only biased, but full of misinformation, i.e., not mentioning all the facts regarding our health care system. Yes, the idea of free health care is a myth. Now, what would you Americans prefer, more widely availible health care, with a two-tiered system, or 'no new taxes'?
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:38 am
In case you don't know, Fox, "socialized" was made a dirty word in this country a long time ago. The same has now been done for "liberal."
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:39 am
Cav,as long as the people in this country and on these threads can personally afford health care...then they prefer no new taxes because they don't give a rats ass about those who can't afford health care.....but then, you already know that don't you?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:40 am
Published: Jun 28, 2004
Modified: Jun 28, 2004 7:25 AM

Kerry, Bush differ on health care

By LAWRENCE M. O'ROURKE, News & Observer Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON -- The differences between the health care policies embraced by President Bush and Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry are wide and very expensive.

Perhaps the most glaring example of the contrast is how to provide health insurance to the estimated 44 million Americans who lack it.

The president would spend $90.5 billion over the next 10 years on a plan that would bring health insurance to about 2.1 million people.

The Kerry plan would cover 26.7 million people, more than 10 times the number under the Bush plan. And it would cost $653 billion between now and 2014, or more than seven times the cost of the Bush plan.

THE LATEST

Presumptive Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry might cancel plans to speak to the U.S. Conference of Mayors rather than cross a police officers' picket line.

Kerry spokesman David Wade told reporters that Kerry would not give his scheduled speech this morning because of protests at the conference. "He's never crossed picket lines in his time in public life," Wade said.

The Boston Police Patrolmen's Association, which has a history of endorsing Republican presidential candidates, is seeking a raise of about 17 percent over four years. Boston's Democratic mayor Thomas Menino has offered 11.9 percent.

The Associated Press

"Health care is likely to be the key domestic policy issue of the 2004 presidential campaign," said Kenneth E. Thorpe, professor of health policy at Emory University in Atlanta.

The smaller Bush proposal would fit into the president's overall campaign theme by not interfering with the president's plan to expand tax cuts and reduce the federal budget deficit, according to James Capretta. Capretta managed the Bush administration's health and education policy at the Office of Management and Budget until last month. He resigned then to become an adviser on health policy to the president's re-election campaign.

"The president plans to cut the federal budget deficit in half over the next five years, mostly through spending cuts," Capretta said. "That would require reform in entitlement programs, such as Social Security and Medicare, as well as controls on domestic spending."

Kerry would pay for his more costly plan by eliminating future tax cuts for the top 2 percent of taxpayers and would shift part of the cost of his health insurance plan from Washington to state capitals, said Sarah Bianchi, national policy director for the Kerry campaign. Bianchi said Kerry would "strike a new compact with the states."

But many states may not want the compact or be able to afford it.

Kerry would have the federal government pay the full cost of health insurance for the 20 million children enrolled in Medicaid.

In return, states would have to agree to expand the coverage of children in families with income up to 3 times the poverty level, cover their family members if the family's income is less than twice the poverty level, and assure that very poor adults without children receive health insurance.

Kerry says that the swap of health care responsibility between the federal government and the states would save state taxpayers "billions of dollars."

The Bush plan would rely on lowering the price of health insurance. The president would provide a tax credit or cash equivalent to people under 65, exclusive of two groups: Those with employer-sponsored health insurance or covered by Medicaid would not be eligible for the credit.

Bush would allow individuals buying high-deductible plans to take a deduction on their income taxes for the premiums they pay, even when they don't otherwise itemize deductions.

The policies covered under Bush's plan would be required to have a deductible of at least $1,000 for a single policy and $2,000 for a family policy.

Capretta, Bush's health care adviser, said that health care, while an important part of Bush's campaign, would not be one of its top three priorities. Capretta said the president would stress the international war against terrorism, protection of the homeland, and job growth.

Jason Furman, director of economic policy for the Kerry campaign, said the Massachusetts senator would "fight for his proposals" through elimination of currently planned future tax cuts on the very wealthy.
http://www.newsobserver.com/politics/story/1378177p-7500941c.html
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:40 am
Cav,

Stepping out of the political debate for a moment-- I have an honest question (actually two).

Would you choose the US system over the Canadian system for you country?

Would most Canadians?
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:41 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Cav,as long as the people in this country and on these threads can personally afford health care...then they prefer no new taxes because they don't give a rats ass about those who can't afford health care.....but then, you already know that don't you?


Sadly, yes.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:42 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Cav,

Stepping out of the political debate-- I have an honest question (actually two).

Would you choose the US system over the Canadian system for you country?

Would most Canadians?


Despite some of the frustrations, I would say absolutely not on both counts.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:44 am
cav- You are a relatively young man. I would be curious as to the thoughts of any older, say 50+, Canadians. They are the folks who are most likely to need more extensive health care.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:45 am
D writes:
Quote:
In case you don't know, Fox, "socialized" was made a dirty word in this country a long time ago. The same has now been done for "liberal."


I'm well aware of this D, but I am one who pretty much refuses to follow the crowd. I have long believed that it is far more important to argue the substance of the other's point of view regardless of how it is phrased. (I do object to broad generalities however guilty I may be of using them. Smile)

I think we will return civility and constructiveness to debate in the A2K community and in the country when people again debate a thesis instead of semantics.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:46 am
Cav, would you say that Williams has his facts straight in the article that starts this thread?

Never mind...just checked back and you already answered. Thanks. Smile
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:48 am
OK, fair enough. I'm not questioning your use of language, Fox. But I do question the writer whose article you pasted. I'm sure he was very well aware of how the term "socialized medicine" has played in this country for the past 40 years or so.

Why not "universal health care"?
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:51 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Cav, would you say that Williams has his facts straight in the article that starts this thread?


I would say he has some of the facts correct, but he does not paint a complete picture, hence my accusation of the article being biased.

Phoenix, I may be young, but due to a couple sad strokes of fate, I have some rather long-term health concerns of my own, so I do feel I am in a position to comment. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:51 am
It always amuses me to hear that "free health care" has something 'socialism': it was worldwide first introduced by the Prussian prime minister and German chancellor Prince Bismarck in 1883 - the same Bismarck, otherwise known for his "Anti-Socialist-Laws".

re 'socialise':
- pupils in the first grades get marks on how good they socialise, and especially private boarding schools make propaganda for their efforts in this theme,
- prisoners can leave prison earlier on probation here, when "there is a good change of socialisation"
- and ... and.... :wink:
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:51 am
Well he is citing mostly Canadian studies to back up his thesis. I wonder what facts he might have wrong?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 11:53 am
In this country, if I need to see the doctor for anything urgent, I can generally see the doctor within a few days; more often than not the same day I call. For an out and out emergency, I can get immediate attention at the nearest emergency room. For the most part, the doctors I have are excellent. I really don't want to screw that up.
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