cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Thu 21 Jul, 2016 05:49 pm
@vikorr,
If you don't like politifact stats, here's the DOJ stats.
http://www.amren.com/news/2015/07/new-doj-statistics-on-race-and-violent-crime/

I'll settle for the 43%.

Here's a Huff Post article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kerry-coddett/white-on-white-crime-an-u_b_6771878.html

Here's one study that shows 83% of violent crimes are white on white.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls
vikorr
 
  0  
Thu 21 Jul, 2016 06:03 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Fair enough

How though, did you get 83% of white on white out of the last table. It's not quoted anywhere, and while it gives numbers for Offender by race/sex, and numbers for Victims by race/sex, it doesn't mention who is killing who (which seems odd to me)

The DOJ statistics that you linked, put violent crime white against whites at 56% (the rest comprising black, hispanic, other, unknown)
vikorr
 
  0  
Thu 21 Jul, 2016 06:21 pm
@vikorr,
Ah hah, found it (the 83%). Was reading the table a little wrong.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  3  
Fri 22 Jul, 2016 10:54 am
Oddly enough 538 has a piece out filed under Carl Bialik addressing why so many blacks are killed by police officers.

Why Are So Many Black Americans Killed By Police?
Quote:
Racism almost certainly plays a role. Understanding exactly how is crucial for addressing the problem.


Quote:
Black Americans are more than twice as likely as white Americans to be killed by police officers.1 Researchers agree that racism almost certainly plays a role in that disparity. But “racism” is too broad an explanation to reveal much about the more immediate causes or to point to a way to reduce police killings of black people like the recent ones in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and a suburb of St. Paul, Minnesota.

Researchers who have studied the issue say that racism manifests itself in different ways, requiring a range of solutions. If the disparity arises because bias among police officers makes them more likely to fire guns at black people than at white people who pose equal threats, for example, then the answer could lie in hiring, training and firing: test recruits for bias, train officers to not exercise bias and fire officers who demonstrate bias.

But if the disparity is due more to systemic police practices than the prejudices of individual officers, then the answer could be to change those practices — for instance, ensure that departments don’t concentrate car checks that are unlikely to turn up anything illegal and could turn violent in predominantly black neighborhoods.

And if the disparity is because there are relatively more police interactions with black people, because black people commit a disproportionately large share of reported crimes, then the answer could be to address the systemic causes of the crime disparity, including urban poverty. (No one said the solutions would be easy.)

Researchers say that these and many other factors underlie the disparity in killings but that identifying how much each factor contributes to the burden of police violence borne by black Americans isn’t possible based on the data available.

“Each of these factors all nudge reactions in the same direction: Greater expectations of crime and greater police confrontation among minority than majority members of the community,” said Keith Payne, a professor of psychology and neuroscience at the University of North Carolina who has studied police bias. “Even if the effect of each factor is small, their cumulative effect could be enormous. I suspect that is what we see when we look at the overall climate right now: the cumulative effect of dozens of factors all pushing lightly in the same direction.”

Charles Epp, a political scientist at the University of Kansas, thinks most scholars in the field would say the convergence of black people and police officers in places of concentrated disadvantage plays a major role, although he added that the decisions of departments and officers also are significant and interconnected. “A more aggressive style of policing” in those areas “almost certainly contributes to more rapid escalations toward use of deadly force,” said Epp, co-author of the book “Pulled Over: How Police Stops Define Race and Citizenship.”

Michelle Phelps, a sociologist at the University of Minnesota, said it may not be possible to determine exactly how much each factor plays a role in the racial disparity in police killings. “But I think we can say more generally which of these are driving more or less of the trends we see and, critically, which we can ameliorate through policy choices,” said Phelps, who studies criminal justice.

Saying racism likely plays a role in black Americans’ being killed at a higher rate than the national average doesn’t mean it plays a role every time an officer kills a black person. Among the black people killed by police officers this month are the suspected shooters in attacks on officers in Dallas and Baton Rouge that killed five officers and three officers, respectively. Police are trained to use lethal force when necessary to protect themselves and the public.

Like with so many stories about criminal justice issues, this is a story of data that researchers wish they had but don’t.

As incomplete as national data is for people killed by police officers — their number and the circumstances of their deaths — the data on people who interact with police officers and aren’t killed is even more limited. The FBI plans to start collecting data on use of force from police departments in January, according to spokesman Stephen Fischer. For now, though, it’s hard to answer basic questions about risk. How many people who are armed are encountered by police and perceived to be dangerous, what percentage of them are killed by police officers, and how does that differ by race of the people who are armed? That’s all impossible to answer.

Take, for instance, a high-profile study released this month, though not yet peer-reviewed, by Harvard University economist Roland G. Fryer Jr. and covered in The New York Times and many other media outlets. It found that police are no more likely to shoot a black suspect than a white suspect in encounters in which using deadly force could be deemed justified — such as when suspects attack officers or resist arrest. The implication: Black people are shot at a higher rate relative to their population simply because they have more high-risk encounters with officers.

Other researchers took issue with some of the research methods, including Fryer’s reliance on police reports, which don’t always depict uses of force accurately. One of their biggest criticisms was of the study’s scope: It could only make a reasonably strong claim about shootings in Houston. Shootings are rare enough that a single city’s data isn’t likely to provide much insight. And even if it does, something idiosyncratic about that city could have driven the finding. Maybe Houston has a police force that is unusually free of bias. Maybe police officials in the city knew that the results would reflect well on their officers and so they were more inclined to share the data.2

The larger point is that without a nationwide effort to collect data on every police interaction, it’s up to individual departments to decide whether to collect and publish this kind of information — and then it’s up to researchers like Fryer and his team, who took 30 to 45 minutes per arrest record to manually enter data on each of around 1,000 arrest records for Houston. And that doesn’t only mean we won’t know about police interactions with civilians in cities whose departments don’t report data. It means we have no way of knowing whether the departments that do report data are representative of the ones that don’t.

“Those departments willing to provide information voluntarily may differ systematically from those that do not,” said Rajiv Sethi, an economist at Barnard College who critiqued Fryer’s study and has called for more data on police encounters with civilians.

If departments that have less bias and use less force are more likely to share data with researchers, that would tend to make academic findings of bias conservative, said Phillip Atiba Goff, a professor in policing equity at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. In other words, they would be likely to understate bias. But Goff has found that there are plenty of reasons other than fear of looking bad for departments not to share data. In his role as the co-founder and president of the Center for Policing Equity, a research group that studies policing, Goff is working to build a database on police stops and use of force. He said that he has received commitments to share data from police departments that collectively serve one-third of Americans but that some departments are held back by software that won’t allow them to extract data. “That’s the level of technological retrograde we’re dealing with in law enforcement,” Goff said.

The many factors that might contribute to the racial disparity in police killings are hard to disentangle. “It is very difficult to empirically separate the effects of poverty, geography, race, race bias and policing tactics,” Payne said.

And factors can create or reinforce one another. For instance, a greater proportion of black Americans than white Americans live in poverty. Poverty is positively correlated with certain kinds of crime. This might lead officers who weren’t biased before joining a police force to become biased because of whom they encounter and arrest, Payne said.

Payne wants to see more controlled experiments, ones in which researchers can change just one variable in a lab setting and see what happens, to try to weigh the different effects of racism on the disparity in police killings. These can be valuable for measuring what’s known as implicit bias, for example. Tests have shown that officers who have been shown pictures of people and of objects are quicker to identify objects as weapons after they’ve been shown a photo of a black person than one of a white person. However, in simulations of interactions with the public, officers showed no bias against black suspects when deciding whether to fire their weapons.

These findings are from laboratory experiments. The real world doesn’t have controlled conditions, but it provides ample evidence that black people face a greater risk of being killed by police officers. For instance, while the vast majority of police officers are white, the vast majority of officers shot by other officers are black. And law-abiding black Americans interact with the police at a far higher rate than other Americans. Black people are disproportionately the subject of random stops by police officers, called “low hit rate” encounters by some researchers because of the small probability that officers will find a weapon. Data from Kansas City, San Francisco and New York City shows that black people are far more likely than white people to be stopped. And this isn’t just a function of the overlap between areas of high crime rates and ones with a high black population: Black people are stopped more often even after controlling for an area’s crime rates.

Beyond the data, there is the testimony of black Americans, including some in uniform or in political office, about experiencing a disproportionately large share of encounters with police. All but one of 25 current or former black New York Police Department officers interviewed by Reuters in 2014 said they’d been racially profiled. Republican Sen. Tim Scott of South Carolina said in a floor speech this month that he’d been stopped and pulled over all his life by officers.

These tense encounters can spiral into violence. A study co-authored by Goff this month found that even after adjusting for crime rates, police officers were more likely to use force with black people than with white people. (Fryer found the same thing for uses of force that didn’t involve firearms.) One reason for that is that officers’ racial bias — conscious or not — “may shape subtle aspects of the whole interaction in ways that are more consequential than the last stage of pulling the trigger,” Phelps said. There are many individual examples of police officers expressing explicit racism in emails. These add up to less than comprehensive statistics about the extent of racism among American police officers but are perhaps more than just a series of anecdotes, especially considering that other officers who are racist may never have put it in writing.

0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  -3  
Fri 22 Jul, 2016 12:02 pm
It's a real simple formula if you want to decrease your chances of being killed by a police officer do not resist arrest... Do not escalate your use of force... we train and pay our police officers not to lose the fight.
If you happen to know that in your area police officers are on edge for whatever the reason (usually some politician or some militant activist group heats up the tension and temperature) it is absolutely stupid and ridiculous and suicidal to posture with or try to intimidate or use any Force whatsoever during your contact with police. To be perfectly Frank most of the deaths I classifiy as suicide by cop... if you're purposely escalating your Force during any police contact and it results in your death in my book that's purely suicide or maybe retroactive evolution... Either way you're dead... You can think you're right and still end up dead that's called being dead right.
revelette2
 
  3  
Fri 22 Jul, 2016 01:24 pm
@giujohn,
I suppose you haven't heard about the black therapist who was shot who did do everything right who got shot anyway? He was in the street trying to help a man with autism. The police are now saying it was a mistake. Yeah, right.



giujohn
 
  -3  
Fri 22 Jul, 2016 01:35 pm
@revelette2,
Yeah I heard about it it was an obvious mistake... Unless of course you're somebody who believes that all police officers are Racists that get up in the morning just hoping to shoot some black person for no good reason yada yada yada
RABEL222
 
  4  
Fri 22 Jul, 2016 02:35 pm
@giujohn,
No, just cops with your attitude. I'm sure you would shoot first and ask questions after, even if their hands were in the air.
0 Replies
 
TheCobbler
 
  2  
Fri 22 Jul, 2016 04:27 pm
@giujohn,
...another minority hit hard by police. Coincidence?

Police Kill Native Americans at Higher Rate than Any Other Group, and Nobody is Talking About It
http://countercurrentnews.com/2015/09/law-enforcement-native-americans-at-higher-rate-than-any-race-and-nobody-is-talking-about-it/

also

North Miami Officer Was Aiming At Man With Autism, Union Chief Says
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/22/487027848/north-miami-officer-was-aiming-at-man-with-autism-union-chief-says?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20160722

Comment:
It seems people with autism are on the gundown list too...


and then there is this....

Where the Guns are coming From Ex Gang member speaks the truth



The odd thing is, I believe him...
TheCobbler
 
  2  
Fri 22 Jul, 2016 04:43 pm
Watch “Is We Sick Boss” Sheriff Clarke Get Schooled About “Black On Black Crime” [Video]
http://bossip.com/1335564/pure-comedy-watch-is-we-sick-boss-sheriff-clarke-get-schooled-about-black-on-black-crime-video/
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Fri 22 Jul, 2016 05:17 pm
@TheCobbler,
The cop who shot at the Black Man / Autistic Kid - was it 3 times? - should be charged. 3 times isn't a mistake (once, maybe). Even with the information they were called there for, there didn't appear to be anything to warrant shots.

---------------------

As for that video - the guy is a conspiracy theorist. There are several indications to this:

- he states there are no gun shops within the city limits: a quick google search brings up 12 gun shops. This is a glaring mistake in his theory.

- he states 'they' are leaving them. 'They' is also the sign of a conspiracy theorist. In his theory, he won't say outright, but implies that police are doing so...like the police are a big collective. The department might be a collective (does anyone truly think the department is buying them?), but individual officers aren't, except maybe sometimes within their own squad (if its a highly cohesive squad). Does anyone really think individual officers are buying out of their own money, thousands of guns (as he implies) to leave lying around?

- he states 'so that police can then shoot the guy'...uh, really? Police want to confront a guy armed with an automatic weapon / highly modified weapon? (he's constantly talking about highly modified & automatic weapons). That's insane.

- if you look into Neuro Linguistic Programming / Lying / eye movement, you'll find the basis for 'I could tell he was lying because he was looking up and to the right'...that is an oversimplification, but the interesting fact here is that he was constantly accessing the creative side of his brain (rather than the recall side), while talking about his past.

- if his story is true, then the most likely group of people doing so, are drug syndicates. Create a no go zone for police, or a place where they wont ask many questions, and drugs become much easier to peddle.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  -2  
Fri 22 Jul, 2016 05:54 pm
Anyone and I mean anyone who believes that the officers intention was to commit cold-blooded murder of a black man is an idiot and a reactionary whose purpose is only to inflame the issue and disregard common sense and the facts.
MontereyJack
 
  4  
Fri 22 Jul, 2016 06:10 pm
@giujohn,
The question is WHY HE SHOT AT ALL . What could a toy truck endanger and why do his apologivsts. claim he wa aiming at the autistic kid. as if that somehow excused the shooting
vikorr
 
  2  
Fri 22 Jul, 2016 08:32 pm
@giujohn,
Err...do you mean like the officer who shot the unarmed black man that was running from him, then planted his (the officers) taser on him to make it look like the black man grabbed his taser?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW5rXN9c67M

That was an out and out execution.

There are obviously problems in the US. Anyone who denies this is an idiot and a disregarder or murders, whose only purpose is to bury the problem, and disregard common sense and evidence.

...now that we've seen that ridiculous claims can be made on both sides...

Would it not be more common sense to say that some members of the police forces in the US would be racists, but that doesn't make them all.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that police officers come from the spectrum of society, and therefore some officers would have to have racist tendancies (just as some parts of society are racist). Vetting certainly never identifies every problem officer before they join.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that as a percentage of the total number of police officers, the total that are racist, or commit crime, are quite low.

Would it also be fair to say that activist groups are actively looking for things to label 'racist' even if an careful examination of the evidence reveals they aren't racist, or in fact show a systematic attempt to stop racism? I've commented on a number of these on another thread of bobs here, and here x 3 posts

It would also be fair to say, I think, that most officers never want to shoot someone.

And it would be fair to say that all officers want to go home at the end of the day.
--------------------------------

All this is not to say that activist groups shouldn't exist. Where people see a problem, they should stand up & speak out...peacefully.
vikorr
 
  2  
Fri 22 Jul, 2016 09:14 pm
@vikorr,
And none of that is to say that an officer who shoots 3 times at a man with his hands in the air (or the other option, at an autistic man playing with a truck) should not be charged for his stupidity.

Any member of the public, discharging multiple shots in the same circumstances, and wounding a person, would be charged. Should police be held to a lesser standard than the rest of the public?

Granted its a difficult job being a police officer. Granted it's also at times dangerous. Granted lots of people in the US carry concealed firearms. Granted sometimes a police officer has to make split second decisions. Granted many people hate police officers....that doesn't change the fact that when they arrived, they were faced with a very cooperative man, with his hands in the air, and an autistic man playing with a truck...then let go of three shots.

So the question still remains - should police be held to a lesser standard than the rest of the public?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Fri 22 Jul, 2016 11:36 pm
@giujohn,
Anyone who excuses the shooting of an unarmed man with his hands in the air will excuse anything.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  4  
Sat 23 Jul, 2016 05:20 am
@giujohn,
Quote:
elieves that the officers intention was to commit cold-blooded murder of a black man


And anyone and I mean anyone who can ignore the fact that cops are shooting more and more unarmed, complying PoC/native Americans/mentally ill/homeless Americans every day, day in day out is an idiot or part of the problem or is a delusional blowhard. Or in giujohn's case - all three.

He'll be leaving a2k in November 8, 2016.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  4  
Sat 23 Jul, 2016 07:16 am
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54ecf211e4b0ed744420c5b6/t/569534449cadb69b288bedee/1452618828280/2015policekillingsunarmed.jpeg?format=750w


2015policekillingsunarmed.jpeg
Key Findings:

Police killed at least 102 unarmed black people in 2015, nearly twice each week. (See which police departments were responsible for these deaths)
Nearly 1 in 3 black people killed by police in 2015 were identified as unarmed, though the actual number is likely higher due to underreporting
37% of unarmed people killed by police were black in 2015 despite black people being only 13% of the U.S. population
Unarmed black people were killed at 5x the rate of unarmed whites in 2015
Only 10 of the 102 cases in 2015 where an unarmed black person was killed by police resulted in officer(s) being charged with a crime, and only 2 of these deaths (Matthew Ajibade and Eric Harris) resulted in convictions of officers involved. Only 1 of 2 officers convicted for their involvement in Matthew Ajibade's death received jail time. He was sentenced to 1 year in jail and allowed to serve this time exclusively on weekends. Deputy Bates, who killed Eric Harris, will be sentenced May 31.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  4  
Sat 23 Jul, 2016 07:20 am
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54ecf211e4b0ed744420c5b6/t/5733608e20c647896b60fa8f/1462984858561/PoliceKillingsTrendline.png?format=1000w

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54ecf211e4b0ed744420c5b6/t/5695519969492ee091ce55a1/1452626355687/blackpeoplemorelikelytobekilled.png?format=1000w

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54ecf211e4b0ed744420c5b6/t/570e8e0c356fb0af9cde3faf/1460571675358/?format=1000w

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54ecf211e4b0ed744420c5b6/t/57211e971bbee0b4bdfbb46e/1461788332413/NotaboutCrime.jpeg?format=1000w

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54ecf211e4b0ed744420c5b6/t/57277e7c2b8dde53fd13c7b5/1462206110054/noaccountability.png?format=1000w

0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Sat 23 Jul, 2016 07:24 am
http://mappingpoliceviolence.org/compare-police-departments
0 Replies
 
 

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