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Was communism really that bad??

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:00 pm
MyOwnUsername wrote:
no, we haven't disagreed about that before, but we can do it now Smile

No, it wasn't you (I looked it up ;-)), but Relative, the Slovenian poster we had here for a while ... see here.

I seem to remember reading how, for example, even Soviet advisors that went to Yugoslavia in that brief period of "socialist brotherhood" (1945-48) were taken aback by the brutality with which Tito clamped down on all political opposition in those years ... unfortunately, both Pavlowitch's Tito bio that I cited in that post and other books on that time have long dissappeared into uncategorized piles of xeroxes, so I cant look back up where I got that from ...
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:08 pm
I don't think Franco and Tito is a very good comparison.

Franco's regime was much more repressive than Tito's.
The atrocities of both the Spanish Civil War and the first years of the regime count the victims in tens of thousands (remember, Nazis and Fascists supported the Spanish Nationalists, and they shared the ideology, only the Spaniards were more religion minded).
There was not even a mock free-press.
Spaniards were not allowed to travel to any socialist country.
No political parties were allowed, and there was a religion oriented repression on social life.

MOU's description of Titoism reminds me very much, instead, of the Mexican regime before the democratic transition took momentum (until the late seventies/ late eighties).
No wonder that former Mexican president Luis Echeverría and Tito were such good friends.
We have a nice statue of Tito in Mexico City.
By the way, Echeverría, now 82, is facing an investigation on the charges of genocide. I personally think the charges are exagerated and he will never set foot on a jail.

There's a photograph at my mother's house. A very young fellow sitting between Tito and Echeverría with a glass of champagne in his hand. I'm not particularly proud of that picture, but circumstances have put me in very interesting places.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:10 pm
MyOwnUsername wrote:
hm, it won't open Sad I mean, link is probably okay, it just won't open...
can you quote something?


Here's the first paragraph of c.i.'s link ...

Quote:
MARSHAL TITO'S KILLING FIELDS
Croatian Victims of the Yugoslav Secret Police Outside former Communist Yugoslavia, 1945-1990
Posted on February 17, 2002
By Tomislav Sunic and Nikola Stedul

The ongoing legal proceedings in the Hague against Serb and Croat war crimes suspects, including Serbian ex-president Slobodan Milosevic, must be put into wider perspective. The unfortunate and often irrational hatred between Serbs and Croats had for decades been stirred up and kept alive by the communist Yugoslav secret police. The longevity of artificial, multiethnic Yugoslavia was not only in the interests of Yugoslav communists but also of Western states. As a long-time Western darling, the late Yugoslav communist leader Marshall Josip Broz Tito had a far bigger share in ethnic cleansing and mass killings. Yet for decades his crimes remained hidden as well as unreported in the West. [..]


Article's mostly about "killings of Croatian emigre dissidents" by the Yugoslav secret police ... authors are NIKOLA STEDUL, "author, former US professor in political science [..] former Croat diplomat [..] author of Titoism and Dissidence (1995)" and TOMISLAV SUNIC, "former Croat emigre [and] former president of the Croatian National Democratic Party in Croatia". (What kind of party was that?). Mind you, article also mostly focuses on attacking the The Hague War Crimes Tribunal.
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:18 pm
Actually, I don't know much about Stedul, and Sunic was president of funny small party...it's hard to explane that to normal people actually, our political system is ridiculous, we have like 100 parties...3-4 of them are big, additional 3-4 can enter the parliament and others are just lunatics...I mean, I respect those that have no chance for any success but have some different views, but we have, like 7-8 kinds of Party of Rights (HSP, HSP-1861, HP, HCSP, HOP...). Crazy.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:18 pm
fbaezer wrote:
I don't think Franco and Tito is a very good comparison.

Well, I'm kinda hoping it's not, emotionally like - but the thought came up, I thought I'd give it a whirl ... so, while we're at it:

fbaezer wrote:
Franco's regime was much more repressive than Tito's.
The atrocities of both the Spanish Civil War and the first years of the regime count the victims in tens of thousands

How many victims did the first Tito decade claim, compared to the post-civil war Franco years?

Hard to compare the numbers of the respective civil wars, since I think Franco bears disproportionally more blame for the Spanish Civil War's dead than Tito does for the WW2 dead in Yugoslavia ...

fbaezer wrote:
There was not even a mock free-press.

Not in Tito's Yugoslavia either, I think, at least not up through to the sixties ...

But foreign press was for sale in Yugoslavia, I gather? Was foreign press freely for sale in Spain, once the tourists started coming?

fbaezer wrote:
No political parties were allowed,

Not in Tito's Yugoslavia either ...

fbaezer wrote:
There's a photograph at my mother's house. A very young fellow sitting between Tito and Echeverría with a glass of champagne in his hand. I'm not particularly proud of that picture, but circumstances have put me in very interesting places.

Interesting ... ! How'd that come about?
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:19 pm
btw, thanks for the link...I'll kill Relative for that...now he made me Yugo-Nostalgic again...
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:21 pm
fbaezer wrote:

There's a photograph at my mother's house. A very young fellow sitting between Tito and Echeverría with a glass of champagne in his hand. I'm not particularly proud of that picture, but circumstances have put me in very interesting places.


WOW! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:24 pm
nimh, in comparing numbers it's important weather we will count those killed in first few weeks after WW2 as war victims or not. Majority of them were soldiers of defeated armies.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:27 pm
fbaezer, "Interesting" is an understatatement if I ever heard of one. LOL
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:28 pm
MyOwnUsername wrote:
Actually, I don't know much about Stedul, and Sunic was president of funny small party...it's hard to explane that to normal people actually, our political system is ridiculous, we have like 100 parties...3-4 of them are big, additional 3-4 can enter the parliament and others are just lunatics...

I only know the HDZ, the HSLS, the Social-Democrats (SDP?), the HSP that you mention (far-right, right?), the HNS (fairly large, relatively non-nationalist opposition party back in the early 90s - does it still exist?), and the Istrian party and Serb party ...

Not to digress all too far, but how's the HDZ rule holding up since they came back in power? Are any shades of Tudjman yet re-emerging, or is the new leader succeeding in turning it into more of a relatively modernized/westernised Christian-Democratic party? Who is doing better in the opposition, the HSLS or the SDP? Is Mesic still President? He seemed like a good guy - both back in the early nineties and when the HDZ was finally pushed out a decade later ...

(Perhaps more something for a new thread ...)
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:37 pm
I know much more about Franco's atrocities than about Tito's.
I have been told by survivors about concentration camps, where there was hunger, turture and lots of excrement.
Also about forced labor camps. The defeated prisoners forced to build mausoleums for the victors.
I know directly about tens of people who were executed with a firing squad after the war. Their crime? Being relatives of former socialist or republican town majors.

Yes, there was foreign press in Spain.
And lots of Spaniards travelled to France to buy books that were prohibited inside. Many of them printed in Spanish and even in Catala and Euskera. Very few were frisked at the border.

In Catalonia and the Basque Country there was widespread language repression -and the kickback against "Castillian" has been enormous, afterwards.

MOU talks about the press critizising minor things and minor politicians... like the old Mexico, but unlike Franco's Spain, were such criticism was unthinkable.
The first independent newspapers "Cambio 16", now defunct, and "El País", now thriving, opened shortly after Franco's death.

And I don't recall any war cry, anywhere, as Franquista: "¡Viva la Muerte! ¡Muera la Inteligencia!"
(Long Live Death! Death to Intelligence).
I think that's unbeatable.
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:40 pm
HSLS became completely irelevant.
HDZ is in power, and SPD and HNS are main opposition parties. Pretty close is HSS as well (Peasant party). Few places in parliament also have DC (Democratic center), HSP (yeah, far right), IDS (Istrian), LS (Liberal party), Libra (oh, look, another liberal party), IDF (another Istrian party) and SDSS (Serb party, but not the only one, one of at least three).

HDZ...hmm...actually, they have transformed, and despite fact that I will never ever vote for them I think current government is best so far. "Shades of Tudjman" or of their arrogant behaviour from early 90's are re-emering (but only sometimes) exclusively in relation to opposition. Oh, and Minister of Health is completely retarded idiot. But, that's classic in Balkan politics - you always need to have one idiot that will everybody hate and will take all anger on himself.

Yes, Mesic is still president, but elections are pretty soon (still no date, but it should be matter of months). It's pretty sure that it will be close race between Mesic and whoever HDZ picks as its candidate.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:47 pm
Yes, the HSS, I'd forgotten that one. It was in the HSLS/SDP government as well, right, along with the Istrians - and the HNS, too?

Did I read somewhere that one of the Serb parties actually joined the new HDZ government? Wasnt that a little unexpected?

Are you a Mesic voter, yourself, if I may ask?
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:52 pm
OK. The Tito-Echeverria story.

I was an Economics undergraduate and got a government scholarship to study in Italy. Strangely enough, our ticket to Europe was as part of the President's big entourage in a 4 country trip (because of very contorted political reasons: the President wanted to leave his younger son in Italy, and we were the screen so it couldn't be noticed; and the TV also used us: they said we were "left-wing student leaders" who supported the President, which was false). The President's son finally didn't stay in Italy: the Mexican Ambassador to FAO convinced Echeverría that it was dangerous... they had kidnapped Paul Getty's grandson and cut his ear off.

In Belgrade everybody wanted his/her picture taken with Tito. The old man agreed, and several students and reporters took their turn.

Should I add that I also watched the film "Sutjeska", about Tito's life (starring Richard Burton), sitting on the carpet of Tito's living room?
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 08:58 pm
Yes. And HNS voter as well, although so far I voted for HNS only to avoid my vote going to HDZ (we use method where parties that have at least 5% enter parliament, and other votes /those for parties below 5%/ are proportionally go to parties above limit). Voting for Mesic as president is probably only completely willing vote I made so far Smile

Yeah, Serbs supported Sanader. It was maybe a bit unexpected, but he promised a lot and he already did a lot considering problems of refugees, rebuilding houses, almost immidiately his government payed (without court, they decided to do it) big money to survived members of one Serbian family killed in Zagreb by Croatian soldiers - I am still in a state of shock but he actually is modern european politican.
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 09:01 pm
fbaezer, you even watched "Sutjeska" with your buddy Josip? Wink Razz

When was that? I mean, what year?
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 09:02 pm
hey nimh, are you in Netherlands now? I mean, it doesn't matter, I just want to know if I am the only idiot that is awake at 5 in the morning or you are one as well Smile
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 09:09 pm
MOU and nimh, I was wondering about the same thing..... <smile>
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 09:16 pm
birds are singing...sun is showing....and I'm an idiot Smile
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2004 09:53 pm
OK, on Tito's early years again. MOU already mentioned the Goli Otok camp. Cant find back those Pavlowitch and other xeroxes, but since I have a hard copy edition, I could easily find another source - and yes, I know, its a controversial one: The Black Book of Communism of Cautois etc.

Translating:
Quote:
Goli Otok [..] became [..] the most important camp. And it was not just any camp, because educational methods were applied that looked strongly like the methods in the Romanian camp Pitesti and that we can perhaps best label as 'Balkan methods'. Like the "hedge of dishonour", that was also called "warm rabbit". The new inmate would have to walk in between two lines of prisoners (prisoners who wanted to regain their good name or improve their circumstances) who beat him up, scolded him and threw stones at him. [..]

Tortures were daily business for the prisoners. Part of the tortures were for example "the tub", in which the prisoner was held with his head over a tub full of excrement, and the 'bunker', a kind of dark prison cell inside a hole in the ground. But the method most used by the guards/"re-educators" [..] was the duty to pulverize stones on the rocky island. To complete the humiliation of the victim the resulting grit was then thrown into the sea.

The persecution of the communists that erupted in Yugoslavia in 1948 and 1949 probably is one of the most expansive of such persecutions in Europe up to that time [..] In proportion to the number of inhabitants and the number of supporters of communism it was clearly a 'mass persecution'. According to official sources that were long kept secret, this repression has made 16,731 victims [..] Of these victims 3/4 was sent to Goli Otok and Grgur. According to the independent analyses of Vladimir dedijer in the camp Goti Olok alone there have been 31,000-32,000 people. Recent research has not progressed far enough to yield exact numbers of deaths, victims of executions, exhaustion, epidemics and suicides [..]

Note the 16,731 thus are not deaths but "merely" prisoners - and though there were apparently many more (over 30k in Goti Olok alone), that still doesnt necessarily mean there were many thousands of deaths there ...

Also intigueing is that the victims were apparently overwhelmingly party members themselves, victims of the internal purges and show trials - like "1937" more than like "1931", thus?

Otherwise the book recounts the Bleiburg and related episodes MOU already mentioned, when the Titoists settled their scores with the defeated fascist troops directly after the war:

Quote:
When the German capitulation approached, Pavelic departed with his troops and functionaries and their families (in total ten thousand people) towards the Austrian border. In Bleiburg, Slovene White Guards and Chetniks from Montenegro joined them, after which they surrendered to the English troops, who handed them over to Tito.

Soldiers and police agents in all of Yugoslavia observed long death marches passing by. The Slovene prisoners were brought to Slovenia in the surroundings of Kocevje, where between twenty and thirty thousand people were shot. [..] The way in which many Serbian soldiers came to their end, is sketched by Milovcan Djilas, who did not dare to give the undoubtedly gruesome details [..] 'The troops of Draza [Mihailovic] were destroyed around the same time as those of Slovenia. The small groups of Chetniks that went back to Montenegro, there reported new atrocities. [..]'

Hard to distinguish post-war, popular retaliation from state terror here, though the execution of tens of thousands of enemy soldiers who had surrendered themselves imho falls in the latter category, even if they were fascists. Of course retaliations were commonplace across Europe, and Yugoslavia had seen some of the worst fascist violence, but I cant think of instances of collective mass executions of tens of thousands in Western Europe, or even many in Central Europe (the Baltics, where a guerrilla war still kept raging, excluded).

I've also read (but forgot the details) about mass executions at a site in Slovenia or Croatia, where hundreds of bodies were dumped in chalk quarries or cliffs, I believe also after the Communists took over - can anyone help me place that memory, what it was about exactly?

How any of this compares to Franco's Spain I'm still not sure about, though it should be obvious that in spite of all the above horrors, my antipathies still lean even more strongly against Franco's regime ...

Fbaezer makes a vivid and concise enough case about the Spanish horrors. Still, concentration/forced labour camps with hunger and torture there were in the early Tito years as well (though again, there's torture and torture). An equivalent of the mass executions of people, just because they were "relatives of former socialist or republican town majors", as there were in Spain is perhaps harder to find in Yugoslavia, though one can wonder about the "families" mentioned above who surrendered at Bleiburg and were later executed ... And of course, during the war the Partisans did summary executions and house-burning just like their opponents did.

As for the point about the press being able to "critizise minor things and minor politicians" in Yugoslavia (and not in Spain), I do believe that only holds up for the last ten or fifteen years of Titos reign, definitely not already in the late fourties or early fifties.

All in all, I'll believe that Franco's regime was indeed worse. And even the above in no way parallels the Soviet Gulag of course. But Tito's early clampdowns are, I think, much less acnowledged.
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