Was communism really that bad??

What I believe concerning (East-)Germany is that it's also time for a better approach between "West"-Germans and "East"-Germans. For what I know there are a lot of people from "West"-Germany who look down at the "East"-Germans, and a lot of people from "East"-Germany who see the "West"-Germans as arrogant, know-it-alls etc. But because I'm not a German, nor have I ever lived in Germany whatsoever, I would like to know from Germans like Walter, Thomas, Thok (and hamburger) how these "groups" think about each other (is there really a big difference?).

PS: I said Germans, but of course I mean everyone who has a clear view on this.

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Ah .. but the East-Germans are starting to hit back!

Big hit coupla years ago:

Quote:

Die eingefleischten Kellner wissen
dass die Männer im Osten besser küssen
dass die Mädchen im Osten schöner sind
weiss heutzutage jedes Kind.

Dass die Mauern im Osten besser halten.
Dass die Meisten hier meistens etwas
schneller schalten. Dass eigentlich fast
alles etwas besser ist als im Westen.

Jeder wird mal die Erfahrung machen
dass die Kinder im Osten öfter lachen.
Dass sie sich auch über kleine Sachen
freuen,und wenn sie böse warn es später
auch bereuen. Dass die Omis im Osten lieber
sind. Dass jeder Spinner hier auch nur
halb soviel spinnt. Dass hier eigentlich
fast alles etwas besser ist als im Westen.

Refrain:
Trotzdem sind wir wir sind ja so schön viel
zu bescheiden wir sind doch schön.
Trotzdem kann uns immer noch
nicht jeder leiden. Wir sind ja so schön.

Trotzdem sind wir wir sind ja so schön
viel zu bescheiden .Wir sind ja so schön.
Dass wir irgendwan die Siger sind lässt
sich nicht vermeiden.

Jeder weiss das wir hier immer unser
Bestes gaben. Und das auch Ossis
denn Golf erfunden haben.
Das die Zeit hier nicht zu schnell
vergeht weil sich die Erde
etwas langsamer dreht.

Das die Butter hier mehr nach Butter schmeckt
und der Sekt auch etwas mehr nach Sekt.
Das eigentlich fast alles etwas besser
ist als im Westen.

Refrain:
Trotzdem sind wir wir sind ja so toll viel
zu bescheiden wir sind so toll.
Trotzdem kann uns immer noch nicht
jeder leiden. Wir sind ja so toll.

Wir sind ja so toll
viel zu bescheiden .Wir sind ja so toll
das wir irgendwann die Sieger sind lässt sich
nicht vermeiden.

Dum schaba.......
Jeder weiss das die Sonne im Osten erwacht
und um den Westen meistens einen großen Bogen macht.
Das der Wind von Osten meistens etwas
frischer weht.

Das die Semper Oper nicht in Düsseldorf
steht. Dass Martin Luther auch schon
ein Ossi war. Und das im Osten überhaupt
alles wunderbar. Und das eigentlich fast alles
etwas besser ist als im Westen.

Refrain:
Trotzdem sind wir wir sind ja so gut
viel zu bescheiden wir sind ja so gut.
Trotzdem kann uns immer noch nicht
jeder leiden. Wir sind ja so toll

Wir sind ja so toll viel zu bescheiden.
Das wir irgendwann die Sieger sind das
wir irgendwann die Sieger sind das
wir irgendwann die Sieger sind lässt sich
nicht vermeiden.

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Rick d'Israeli wrote:

PS: I said Germans, but of course I mean everyone who has a clear view on this.

Biased :wink:

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I said Germans (except Walter Hinteler)... everyone who has a clear view on this (except Walter Hinteler) Twisted Evil

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Hey guy's i haven't been on in a while and it looks like a\my topic is pretty popular. oh ya setanta i have the covering, how much more worth does that add (sorry don't know if what i just said was grammatically correct...) oh ya and one day i remember it actually quite vividly but a couple of guys called the "stasi" or something came to my house in 87 anyone know who they were (I think they were secret police).

-Hans

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Stasi were the secret police. Archives are now open and if you wish, you can go through your files that Stasi kept. They managed to discard some, but most files were preserved.
We have had visits from State Security (Czechoslovak secret service) regularly - about once every 4 months. Every 1968 anniversary, or creation of Czechoslovak Republic anniversary, or any other important date when protests were suspected, my father would be locked up for 48 hours. Or 2X 48 hours - they would let him walk out of detention and take him right back, as 48 hours was a legal limit to detention without any charges. hm. On November 18th 1989, during the Velvet Revolution, me and my mother met the two secret police officers that conducted housechecks in our house for years in the main square where the masses gathered. They were ringing their keys and yelling along with the crowds: United we stand! And Havel for President! Freedom! I discovered muscles I didn't even know I had in my stomach, it was turning like a centrifuge.

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dagmaraka wrote:

Every 1968 anniversary, or creation of Czechoslovak Republic anniversary, or any other important date when protests were suspected, my father would be locked up for 48 hours. Or 2X 48 hours - they would let him walk out of detention and take him right back, as 48 hours was a legal limit to detention without any charges.

Sounds terrible! Sad

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well, yes. But we were lucky that he was jailed in the eighties. If it was the fifties, might have been a different story. 1989 Revolution got him out of jail after 2 1/2 months (he was jailed in August - the 1968 anniversary a-coming). This time he was charged and it seemed he might get 10 years. For writing. And voicing his opinion of Radio Free Europe. Well, actually he got out one week before the actual revolution, thanks to the concerted efforts of Amnesty International, International Helsinki Federation and other groups that picketed in front of the Court of Justice in Bratislava. Nobody can convince me communism wasn't 'really that bad'...

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dagmaraka wrote:

Nobody can convince me communism wasn't 'really that bad'...

I can imagine! Or actually, I can't imagine how communism was, but reading your personal story, I can imagine you don't agree with 'communism wasn't really that bad' (what was my actual point).

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Our situation had good parts to it. We were surrounded by incredible people - writers, playwrites, actors, philosophers,.... who would meet clandestinely to talk, plot, write, perform... I missed it terribly, but damn, would not go back for the devil!

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I traveled through East Germany, Poland, and the Soviet Union (now Belarus and Russia) in August of 1989 on a bare bones Cosmos bus tour.I was convinced that the system was on the verge of collaspe. Everyone still gave lip service to the old slogans but there were few true believers to be found. The black market was thriving and a pack of Marlboros was the currency of choice.Gorby had just allowed the Hitler/Stalin Pact of 1939 to be acknowledged. Kids were paying off the local militia police with a few $ to get the hard currency they knew was going to outlast the system.A rouble was $1.60 at the official rate and worth about 10 cents on the street.The only bargains to be had were large laminated posters of Lenin,Marx, and Engels in bookstores which were great for my classroom.My saddest memory was seeing the cross placed in Berlin for what turned out to be the last person killed trying to escape to the West(17 yrs. old) just a few months befor it all began to collaspe.How anyone could defend a system that was so evil in practice defies logic.

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Please do this
Can someone just write out a straight list of why communism is bad? Very Happy

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Government owns all businesses.
Everybody gets paid for producing junk.
Everybody gets all the necessities of life; shelter, food, and medical care, but it'll never be of sufficient quality and quantity.
No competition for producing quality goods or services.
Everybody pays the same for everything.
There will be shortages of what is needed or is in high demand.
No freedoms.
Government controls everything.

The total population losses it's motivation to work.
Depression is the norm.
Life values are diminished.

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The 10 contradictions of Communism
(Cuba, early 80s -not so bad times-).

1. The State says it pays the citizens for their work, but it doesn't.
2. The citizens say they work, but they don't.
3. Even if citizens don't work, the Production Plan Goals are met.
4. Even if the plan goals are met, there is nothing at the State stores and the rationing cards are meager.
5. Even if there is nothing at the State stores and the rationing cards are meager, there is food at the citizens' tables.
6. Even if there is food at the citizen's tables, the citizens dislike the government and the system
7. Even if the citizens dislike the government and the system, the media says they love both.
8. Even if the media says the citizens love the government and the system, the State acts as if they hate them.
9. Even if the State acts as if the citizen hate the government and the system, it does nothing to change the situation.
10. Even if the State does nothing to change the situation, the media says it does.

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Communism is a wonderful government system, on one condition: the people running the show must be either pathologically honest, or total robots. It's a system which is predicated on Hegel's view that the masses exist only for the betterment of their betters - exactly the same philosophy as feudalism; the main differences being that (a) you could climb above your birth-station, (b) you could be dropped back and lower on very short notice, and (c) the economy was built on sky-castle theory.

Humans just aren't honest enough to run a government. Any government!

There is debate whether Stalin or Hitler were the worst: in long-term effect on the country, regime-longevity and body-count, Stalin wins with a lay-down Mizere. Had they managed their country's economy properly, there is a chance that the USSR would still be a major power.

Recent developments in Bush-Land's political philosophy (exacerbated by their mindless moral and sexual hypocracy) indicate that the US is busily running itself into the same ideological and economic quagmire.

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To answer (simply) to the question of the Poll, I'd say that it's the USA who abused the most of this system, as it served as a pretext for loads of stuffs...

Now I think I'll run away before being caught by an agent or another...

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since C.I. made the most serios answer; I will comment his - BUT, you have to keep in mind that I lived in the by far "best" and most free communistic country ever (Yugoslavia) and that life in most of (probably all actually) other communistic countries was much worst. So:

cicerone imposter wrote:

Government owns all businesses.

correct.

Quote:

Everybody gets paid for producing junk.

correct

Quote:

Everybody gets all the necessities of life; shelter, food, and medical care, but it'll never be of sufficient quality and quantity.

mostly correct. In Yugoslavia it was more then sufficient quality, but I doubt many people in Soviet Union, Poland or Hungary would say the same.

Quote:

No competition for producing quality goods or services.

correct.

Quote:

Everybody pays the same for everything.

correct

Quote:

There will be shortages of what is needed or is in high demand.

mostly correct. In most of european communistic countries there were shortages of life-important groceries. We in Yugoslavia were in much better position, since almost immidiately after WW2 we cut all ties with Soviet Union, so we had moderately good relations with West - however, ocassionaly we had shortages of stuff like coffee, detergents, or some kinds of meat.

Quote:

No freedoms.

mostly correct - in Yugoslavia people had SOME freedoms of classic democracy, although we also lacked some (no political freedom, and censorship in media considering criticism of leaders) - in other countries lack of freedom was on the bizarre level - they even lacked freedom to leave country, it was almost impossible to get passport. Yugoslavian communists were at least bit smarter on that level - everybody gets passport, so if you want to leave our "best society in the world", well - please leave.

Quote:

Government controls everything.

correct - although in 80's private sector was allowed on some levels in Yugoslavia (for example, my father had private software company)

Quote:

The total population losses it's motivation to work.

absolutely correct. world leaders in holidays and sticking them together (what? Republic Day is on Wednesday? How cool, we will work only on Monday and Tuesday, and then skip Thursday and Friday because weekend is coming)

Quote:

depression is the norm.

probably correct. In Yugoslavia I can't say it was like that, but, as I said, we were way ahead others. Which also had psychological effect, since Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Eastern Germans...were coming to Yugoslavia on vacation since it was only country where they were allowed to go outside of Soviet pact. So, when they were shocked to see chocolate, colour TV's, computers, etc (and sometimes even ordinary things like large stocks of milk)....in our stores, available to everyone, that makes you think "wow, we are so cool, we have all that stuff". So, we weren't really depressed.

Quote:

Life values are diminished.

correct. society is everything. although, it's not only communistic problem in modern world.

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Hey MOU is back! I think you were gone for a while? Very cool to see you again.

Good points all, btw. Would add that some of the limited economic freedoms you mention for the Yugoslav case increasingly held true for Hungary with its "goulash communism" too. And there were slight differences from country to country. In Poland for example, many individual small farms survived through communism, while in most (all?) other communist countries they were collectivized without exception.

One last point, without diminishing in any way the costs or horrors of communism:

Quote:

Quote:
depression is the norm.

probably correct. In Yugoslavia I can't say it was like that, but, as I said, we were way ahead others. Which also had psychological effect, since Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Eastern Germans....

Suicide rates in Hungary were always the highest in the world; many other communist countries ranked high too (though there were also countries that ranked very low, religion apparently being a decisive factor). However, it was after 1989/1991 that suicide rates across Eastern Europe, and in particular in the Former Soviet Union (FSU), positively skyrocketed. FSU states now collectively dominate the top of the list, the Muslim republics excepted.

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it's true, at least in "Yugoslavian" (now Croatian, Slovenian, Bosnian, Serbo/Montenegrian and Macedonian) case - depression is much higher and larger in transition then in communism. To be honest, as far as ex Yugoslavia is concerned, we all live much worse then during communism - for example, before all people went to summer vacations on seaside resorts. Today there is enormous number of people that can't afford it (I would be unable to afford it if it wasn't for family house we already have on seaside), when I was teenager, starting to go out and stuff, parents easily could afford to give me money every single day during all summer and all weekends throughout all year - for cinema, coke, hot-dog, burger, basketball game, whatever I wanted - and we weren't rich family. Now it would be impossible for me to give that to my daugher - luckily, she is only 5 Wink

And one...well, I just have to swear...one f**king thing that can't leave my head...nobody is smiling anymore, nobody is out anymore, nobody is having fun together anymore...we were damn happy kids, we were always out, we had loads of fun, our parents were out all the time with their friends...and everybody was smiling damn it. Now people are so blue and so serious, and even kids are lame...nobody is out, they just stare at computers or playstations at their homes, they don't play street soccer, they are not sitting on benches late at night...this period really sucks.

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communism sukked!!!!

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Was communism really that bad??

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